Cant get high nitrates down

[Sailfinguy21]

Again, I like the various approaches people are taking to accomplish the means of lowering nitrates. Why argue with anyone who has found a satisfactory way for them to lower nitrates. Isn’t a forum a place for us to share our ideas? I’ll maintain that I know I don’t know. This leaves me open to everyone’s experiences and from there I’ll decipher if I’ve tried that method and it’s worked for me or not. I’m not here to criticize anyone. I simply appreciate everyone’s input and view it as a contribution for all of us. As best I can tell Mother Nature is still what we’re all chasing. Observation is paramount!

Thats the problem with people like these guys.

ITS THEIR WAY!!!!!! or no way lol. I didnt argue a refugium doesnt work.. I Argue a refugium is 10x the work involved to setup.. takes up way more room under the tank... And its pretty difficult to do on a tank that isnt reef ready aka predrilled like mine.


His argument. Is my 40$ setup is too expensive.. aparently doesnt work.. and because i habe it on my tanks top its ugly. I mean by all means put it under the tank ? Just get a stronger pump to make up for gravity. Problem solved.

I really dont know why im arguing with them.

As for API kit.. the glass vials create shadows if you hold thrm up against the chart.. you dont get an accurate reading.

If you dig far enpugh on google there is a post from API many years ago mentioning to not hold it against the chart.

Ill just end it here.. ive said my peice if they wanna continue on.. let em lol

Ill just sit here in my bed looking at my tank and laugh maniacly in my head when i do

 

[Sailfinguy21]

I’ll pm you on the morning when I can put light on setup showing how the filter works as well as testing results. This thread has been slightly high jacked and partly my fault. My apologies.

Itd not hijacked by you or me.. Were telling this guy ways to lower his nitrates.

1. Clean the tank.

2. Water changes.

3. Refugium.

4. Denitrate reactors.

Its just an argument of which way works and is easier to do.

He can take the advice from you or me and decide on his own what to do

 

[Amboss72]

Agree

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

I dont see this as a high Jack at all. Open debate it's very helpful

 

[VB313]

Yeah I never thought it could be my rodi but that is totally possible. Thankfully it's not the rodi

Neither did I until I tested my top off reservoir then a fresh bucket from LFS of course they deny it but I honestly think they been selling me straight tap water when I confronted them about it they refused to test it

 

[JCOLE]

Yeah I've tested right after a change... no change at all. I put the bottle 2 through the ringer. I shake it punch it throw it into a busy highway, used it for baseball practice and no change. So yeah it might be a bad test kit.. I've honestly only ever saw it 0 and 40 after a few months of owning it.. there is crystallization in the cap of 2
What brand should I do

I use red sea with the color wheel and it is great!

 

[Dom]

I always try to avoid bottled solutions.

Start with faithful, weekly water changes. I'd do 25% as that is one Home Depot bucket and makes it easy.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Jake - Perhaps a chemistry discussion might be helpful.

As I'm sure that you already know, nitrate is generated from the bacterial breakdown of ammonia. Ammonia is generated in a healthy reef tank from the respiration of fish (they excrete ammonia from their gills), and from the digestion of food by other critters, such as your nassarius snails. Nitrate can be reduced to nitrogen gas by certain other bacterial species in an anoxic environment. This is the principle behind "denitrator" reactors, and also such things as ceramic bio-blocks and bio-balls.

And, as you've noted, nitrate can also be removed mechanically by water changes and by plant growth that's then harvested. Nitrate can also be removed indirectly by skimming. Phytoplankton and aerobic bacteria use nitrate from the water, and a skimmer or other mechanical filtration device removes the bacteria/phytoplankton, so the net effect is a reduction in nitrate.

Carbon dosing, whether from the addition of vinegar, vodka, or a commercial product like NoPOX, encourages the removal of nitrate (and to a certain extent, phosphate) by encouraging the growth of bacteria in the water column. Those bacteria are then removed mechanically, typically by a skimmer.

Here's the bottom line without an back-and-forth about the "best" way to accomplish nitrate control - all of the above methods work. And every single one of them have drawbacks, so there isn't a "best" way. As just a few examples of the drawbacks - carbon dosing, if not done carefully, can cause a bacterial bloom which will consume the oxygen in the water column and nuke the tank. Refugiums can remove a lot of trace elements from the water column as the macroalgae grows, and it can be difficult to balance the growth of macroalgae so that you don't cause a nutrient "crash". Sulfur denitrator reactors can be finicky to run, and potentially dangerous to the tank inhabitants if more methanol is added to the reactor than the bacterial colony can consume. Water changes have the drawback of being laborious, ineffective if done on small scales and infrequently, and potentially dangerous to the tank inhabitants if done on a large scale (>50%) and the water chemistry and temperature of the change water isn't carefully matched to the tank water. Bio-balls/bio-blocks are known to cause elevated aluminum levels in tank water over time, though it's up for debate about how much aluminum is too much.

Finally, trying to control nitrate production by keeping a squeaky-clean tank and sharply curtailing feeding has the drawback of potentially adversely affecting the inhabitants from nutritional deficiency, as well as creating a lot of extra work.

Bottom line - After reading through this, I would suggest the following in your situation, but you will have to decide for yourself:

1) Get a good nitrate test kit. Despite advice to the contrary, API's nitrate test is infrequently used by experienced aquarists. Salifert, Red Sea, Nyos, etc... will all work well if executed according to the directions.
2) Perform a series of daily 30% changes for several days, with measurement of your tank water's nitrate concentration every day before you do the change.

If the nitrate concentration is slowly going down as you do this, you can be fairly certain that your tank's bacterial load and skimmer are doing their job, you won't have a long-term issue, and the tank will stabilize at some lower level of nitrate concentration. If that's not the case, and the nitrate level is stable or increasing over the period of time that you're changing water daily, then you will need to intervene by adopting more aggressive measures as described above. Personally, I favor carbon dosing, but I also have a chemistry background and have no problem precisely measuring liquids. Others with less chemistry skill and/or have different preferences may choose the refugium and/or bio-block/ball route.

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

Jake - Perhaps a chemistry discussion might be helpful.

As I'm sure that you already know, nitrate is generated from the bacterial breakdown of ammonia. Ammonia is generated in a healthy reef tank from the respiration of fish (they excrete ammonia from their gills), and from the digestion of food by other critters, such as your nassarius snails. Nitrate can be reduced to nitrogen gas by certain other bacterial species in an anoxic environment. This is the principle behind "denitrator" reactors, and also such things as ceramic bio-blocks and bio-balls.

And, as you've noted, nitrate can also be removed mechanically by water changes and by plant growth that's then harvested. Nitrate can also be removed indirectly by skimming. Phytoplankton and aerobic bacteria use nitrate from the water, and a skimmer or other mechanical filtration device removes the bacteria/phytoplankton, so the net effect is a reduction in nitrate.

Carbon dosing, whether from the addition of vinegar, vodka, or a commercial product like NoPOX, encourages the removal of nitrate (and to a certain extent, phosphate) by encouraging the growth of bacteria in the water column. Those bacteria are then removed mechanically, typically by a skimmer.

Here's the bottom line without an back-and-forth about the "best" way to accomplish nitrate control - all of the above methods work. And every single one of them have drawbacks, so there isn't a "best" way. As just a few examples of the drawbacks - carbon dosing, if not done carefully, can cause a bacterial bloom which will consume the oxygen in the water column and nuke the tank. Refugiums can remove a lot of trace elements from the water column as the macroalgae grows, and it can be difficult to balance the growth of macroalgae so that you don't cause a nutrient "crash". Sulfur denitrator reactors can be finicky to run, and potentially dangerous to the tank inhabitants if more methanol is added to the reactor than the bacterial colony can consume. Water changes have the drawback of being laborious, ineffective if done on small scales and infrequently, and potentially dangerous to the tank inhabitants if done on a large scale (>50%) and the water chemistry and temperature of the change water isn't carefully matched to the tank water. Bio-balls/bio-blocks are known to cause elevated aluminum levels in tank water over time, though it's up for debate about how much aluminum is too much.

Finally, trying to control nitrate production by keeping a squeaky-clean tank and sharply curtailing feeding has the drawback of potentially adversely affecting the inhabitants from nutritional deficiency, as well as creating a lot of extra work.

Bottom line - After reading through this, I would suggest the following in your situation, but you will have to decide for yourself:

1) Get a good nitrate test kit. Despite advice to the contrary, API's nitrate test is infrequently used by experienced aquarists. Salifert, Red Sea, Nyos, etc... will all work well if executed according to the directions.
2) Perform a series of daily 30% changes for several days, with measurement of your tank water's nitrate concentration every day before you do the change.

If the nitrate concentration is slowly going down as you do this, you can be fairly certain that your tank's bacterial load and skimmer are doing their job, you won't have a long-term issue, and the tank will stabilize at some lower level of nitrate concentration. If that's not the case, and the nitrate level is stable or increasing over the period of time that you're changing water daily, then you will need to intervene by adopting more aggressive measures as described above. Personally, I favor carbon dosing, but I also have a chemistry background and have no problem precisely measuring liquids. Others with less chemistry skill and/or have different preferences may choose the refugium and/or bio-block/ball route.

Absolutly amazing information. Thank you. I notice you said phyto drops nitrate, I stopped dosing phyto thinking it could lead to a rise in nitrate. I should continue adding my live phyto with no fear? I've also been contemplating carbon dosing of sorts. I've been holding off due to the fact my skimmer failed 2x (working fine now) I would hate to induce a bacterial bloom and have 0 skimming due to a failure

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Hmm - perhaps I misphrased that comment. What I mean by "phyto" isn't the Reef Nutrition product that's added to tanks as food for copepods, feather dusters, and other filter feeders. That's actually a nutrient input, which will need some sort of export method. Don't get me wrong, phyto additions can be beneficial to support the kinds of critters that come in on truly live rock - I dose it and oyster feast myself on a regular basis in my tanks.

What I meant was the growth of phyto in the tank, and its subsequent removal by the aquarist through water changes, skimming, mechanical filtration, etc... Depending on the tank, this is probably a very minor export vector compared to the bacteria that is skimmed out.

And yes, I'd be cautious about dosing something into the tank or adding equipment. It might turn out that you need to do this, but remember that in a reef tank, nothing good comes fast. But I'd definitely suggest the "go slow, see if everything stabilizes" approach with the water change/testing regimen I suggested above.

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

Thank you for the clarification! Since the nutrience issue I have cut my phyto to 1/4th of a dose (trying to get tigger pods to breed in my refugium but dont see them in there 24 hrs after addition)