Can't keep nitrates and phosphates up. Insights??

[kevgib67]

I didn’t see any mention water changes. You have got a lot of advice so I will narrow it down to a few things. Stop cleaning the filter pads 2-3 times a week, let them be 10-14 days. Cut down the amount of time the lights on over your macro algae. If you are doing water changes do them less frequently.

 

[jda]

You are OK. The things in your tank need nitrogen and phosphorous, not nitrate or phosphate. There are many sources of nitrogen and phosphorous that you cannot test for that are in more usable forms to your corals and inverts than no3 and po4 are. If you are stocked well and feeding well, then the residual, waste product levels for no3 and po4 are not important as long as they don't get too high.

 

[Sylvester]

Hi all!

I've browsed lots of threads and already have some ideas, but wondering if I laid out my system and what I'm working with, something might jump out at anyone else but me!

I currently have an IM Lagoon 25g, and here is my complete stock list:

Fish
Two ocellaris clowns (both ~1 inch)
Bicolor blenny (~2.5 inch)
Green clown goby (~1 inch; or smaller, he's very tiny)
Yellow watchman goby (~2 inch)
Pink-streaked wrasse (~1 inch)

Inverts
Cleaner shrimp x1
Peppermint shrimp x1
Tiger pistol shrimp x1
Emerald crab x1
Blue-legged hermit crabs x4
Fighting conch x1
Astrea snails x3
Trochus snail x1
Bumblebee snail x1
Nassarius snail x1
Cerith snail x1
Mini-maxi carpet anemone x1
Stomatella, collonista, small sponges, and other random little hitchhikers

Soft Corals
Toadstools x3
Finger leather x1
GSP
Xenia
Blue pineapple tree
Clove polyps
Mushrooms x7
Cabbage leather x1
Palys & zoas x12 (at 4-20 polyps each, or so)
Gorgonian

LPS
Duncan
Hammer x2
Alveopora
Blasto
Acan

SPS
Stylo
Monticap

Macro
Blade caulerpa
Small bits of GHA here and there, which I manually remove

Now... yes, this is a stocked tank! The fish and corals are small, and I notice the corals have been growing very slowly! I've been thinking the lack of nutrients may be stunting their growth rate...?

I never would have thought that with the above listed, in this size tank, I would have such a hard time with keeping any detectable nitrate or phosphate. I am constantly reading 0 nitrates (API and Hanna) and 0 phosphate (ULR Hanna).

I should mention:

- I had dinos (shudder) months ago and has been resolved ever since!
- I had dime-sized patches of thick GHA here and there which I manually remove. Typically, day-to-day, there is very little GHA existing. If it ever gets long enough to pluck, I pluck it.
- Tiny patches of red or green cyano have been popping up, but I just blast it away and it won't come back again for days or - weeks. When it does, it is very little.

I feed a mixture of things:

- Pellets (PE Mysis and Hikari Marine-S)
- Flake (fish don't like flakes, but I have it on hand)
- Frozen (brine, spirulina brine, LRS Nano, cyclopods)
- Reef Roids (I actually just started two weeks or so, and have only fed like 3 times)
- Phyto (just the Brightwell PhytoChrom I think!)
- Selcon
- Aminos (Brightwell CoralAmino)

Filtration:

- The AIO chambers of the Lagoon I just have filter pads that I change out a few times a week; a little Reef Octopus NS-80 (not sure if it's working effectively at all, I just like the aeration, very weak/wet skimmate); 1/4 cup of carbon, and Matrix
- Weekly 5 gallon water changes mainly to replenish Ca/Alk/trace elements (just getting started dosing 2-part)
- Blast rocks and stir sand semi-daily

What I plan to do:

- Feed more! Although, I feel like I do feed a lot (when I feed pellets and frozen, there's lots left over that I leave in the tank for the scavenging inverts)
- I had not been dosing anything since I had dinos, and I just started with the Roids, aminos and phyto again a few weeks ago, a few times a week. Still no dice, so might slooowly ramp that up to more often.
- ...I don't know

The caulerpa grows very fast and I had let QUITE a lot grow in. I ripped 90% of it out and have like... 8 small leaves left now.

What the darn heck is going on? Is the caulerpa sucking everything up? The GHA (I just didn't think there was enough GHA present, but.. maybe?).

I ordered some NeoNitro and NeoPhos as a last resort, but I wanted to play with increasing food, Roids, aminos and phytos.

Maybe the caulerpa, trace amounts of GHA, and the corals are sucking everything up and I legit need to feed my system more?

Thanks all! That was cathartic to write out :)

Ah yes the new stages of dry rock. You want numbers to show ? I suggest dumping some reefroids in. It’ll bump up readings lol

 

[jda]

Aragonite binds phosphates. The more phosphates that you add, the more it will bind. At high water levels of po4, the rock/sand acts like a reservoir that can bind HUGE amounds. At small levels, the rocks/sand acts like a buffer and never really lets you get to zero. I would not be in too big of a hurry to bind phosphate to your rock and sand - many who are just speed up the time when they need to start to remove it.

Read up on the other nitrogen sources like ammonia, nitrite. Read up on the other phosphorous sources like metal phosphate, poly phosphate, organically bound phosphate, etc. You can only test for ortho phosphate, so just the end result of the rest of that stuff as it goes from available to residual/waste.

 

[Steve2020]

Hello there! I read through and I didn't see what rock you used?

Dry rock is a sponge for nutrients for a long time. Live rock, wether from the ocean or well cured from an established tank won't soak up nitrate and phos the way dry rock does.

I started with 90% dry rock myself and struggled with detectable levels for almost a year. I did end up dosing a little brightwell's n and p for a while. Until I was getting actual readings on my Hanna checkers after not dosing for a week or so.

On another tank build I used real ocean live rock and have detectable levels instantly. So I definitely experienced different results just based off rock alone.

Where did you get your info that dry rock is a sponge for nitrates? Agree it is true for phosphates but everything I have read is rock can not soak up nitrates. I would be very interested to read the article where you got this info from. Also live rock can also store and release phosphates just like dry rock.

 

[jda]

Very established rock can have areas deep inside the structre where oxygen gets all used up where bacteria can covert no3 to N gas. This is not the same chemical process where aragonite can bind po4. This process happens more in sandbeds of 2-3 inches or deeper if left undistrubed.

In most cases, dry/dead natural rock is bound full of terrestrial organics and po4 and is a reservoir for po4 that people can fight for a long time. Man made rock that is colored with purple epoxy does not usually have much phosphate, but also is usually not porous enough to ever house anoxic bacteria enough to lower nitrates.

 

[sugar]

Yes! I know this one! It's the forum. Basically just spending time learning, making friends, starting a build thread, dreaming of upgrades...

Time is the only thing I think that will help here, I think your doing good and have a plan and if your fish are healthy and corals look happy you shouldn't do much other than wait.

Although, I think leathers might be a little toxic when they are dying, you might want to look into that, read and research. I think most recommend carbon. I do not have personal experience with that one though. So def consult there.

It definitely helps, and I really appreciate everyone being so supportive and kind, it's really helpful. It can be a stressful hobby and we only want to try to provide the best care we can for these animals.

Speaking of, my poor little finger leather and cabbage frags. I don't know what's up with them. I have turkey-basted the finger leather and some tissue blows away... so it's decaying. I cut off what's left of "healthy-looking" tissue as a last ditch. The cabbage is too small to do anything with so hopefully it comes around.

Are these not supposed to be the easiest corals ever?! I'm gutted, because they are also my favorites. When things are running better I will have to try again. The other toadstools and softies are doing great, so something specifically is wrong with these two.

I did add some carbon, which I didn't have in there for a few weeks.. so maybe it will help! I usually do run 1/4 cup of carbon just in the media chambers.

 

[sugar]

@sugar a question and then some suggestions.

You mention you stir the sand bed up. Next time you do that and the water clears up enough to grab a vial of water to test P04, see if you get a reading of phosphate. In my system I was lacking N & P and the only thing that worked was adding ESV Calcium Nitrate and Brightwell Neophos. My system was sucking up p04 like nobody's biz. The sand and rock was sucking it up like crazy. Nitrate didn't need to be dosed very much at all to hold a detectable reading.

I would-
-Leave the skimmer going as its not removing N & P as much as you think. It'll help buffer the PH so let it run.
-stop adding reefroids or you'll spur another dino outbreak 100%. Trust me as it will fuel dinos in your no N & P system.
-add nitrate
-add neophos till you get a reading and test every day. (you'll find that you'll be adding and adding and every day it'll fall back to zero) I had the same issue and had to dose 3x the daily amount so the next day I still got a reading.
-add your aminos but slowly. I just dose 4 drops once a week to NOT fuel the uglies.
-add live phyto daily
-do not feed more, you'll turn the tank into a toilet if you do.
-neophos is your friend!
-have a bottle of microbactor 7 and microbactor clean on hand.
-do not use MB7 as it will eat up the Nitrate and a sliver of po4.
-once things turn around then add the bacteria to help clean things up.

You'll notice that one day the p04 will be high, so then stop dosing and test every other day. The system should suck up some p04 and then hold for a while then it will probably drop off again. Then do the recommended dose and things should stabilize shortly after.

As for the GHA and if its on a rock that can be removed, then pull it out and drop Hydrogen peroxide on the GHA and let it sit for a couple min and then pop it back into the tank. The GHA will die off and the next day be gone. don't worry about the left over peroxide entering the water as it wont harm anything. If anything the skimmer will become turbo charged for a short while so dial it back or leave it be.

Good luck and happy reefing :)

Okay, this is good stuff. It kind of incorporates the advice I've been getting and you've made it into a comprehensive plan. This is awesome - you're too good to me.

I actually thought of that! Right after things clear up (and maybe even before the WC/stir-up for comparison) to grab a test sample and see what it's saying.

Yeah I need to watch myself and the feeding. I don't want to get trigger happy here and now things have swung on me, terrible algae outbreaks or worse... dinos.

I do have MB7 and MBClean!

Thanks so much!! This is all noted!!!

 

[sugar]

Very established rock can have areas deep inside the structre where oxygen gets all used up where bacteria can covert no3 to N gas. This is not the same chemical process where aragonite can bind po4. This process happens more in sandbeds of 2-3 inches or deeper if left undistrubed.

In most cases, dry/dead natural rock is bound full of terrestrial organics and po4 and is a reservoir for po4 that people can fight for a long time. Man made rock that is colored with purple epoxy does not usually have much phosphate, but also is usually not porous enough to ever house anoxic bacteria enough to lower nitrates.

I'm loving the science!

This has sparked some interesting convo. I'm learning lots!

 

[sfin52]

but Yes! I know this one! It's the forum. Basically just spending time learning, making friends, starting a build thread, dreaming of upgrades...

Time is the only thing I think that will help here, I think your doing good and have a plan and if your fish are healthy and corals look happy you shouldn't do much other than wait.

Although, I think leathers might be a little toxic when they are dying, you might want to look into that, read and research. I think most recommend carbon. I do not have personal experience with that one though. So def consult there.

Not so much dieing but growing especially on sps and lps. It's more like Chem warfare for space and resources. Carbon will remove this.

 

[sugar]

Here's how things were looking last night (I really can't take a decent reef photo, even if my life depended on it. I tried bringing the brightness down [now it looks darker than in real life] just so it wasn't completely overexposed and washed out).

But, you get the idea.

The bicolor blenny is an absolute joy to watch, he is so funny. I love watching him look at things, he has such big eyes and he's always checking things out. Same with the little wrasse.. and clown goby.. they're all fun.

 

[sugar]

So, things have really only bounced back in the last few weeks because this summer I had a lil battle with dinos (cringe), and then it took a while for things to open back up. Only started up in may so just the usual uglies and such this spring/summer.

Most of these corals I bought as frags this summer and the only things that are booming are the palys and zoas (Sunny D from 5 heads to over 20 now, etc.) it seems. Maybe two of three toads, too, are doing really well. Also the stylo, oddly.

Some do better than others in different nutrient conditions (we already know this??).

Honestly, it's only been the last week (maaaaybe two) where the duncan, mushrooms, acan, etc., (even the frigging xenia) have been fully open/extended, which is nice to see, makes me happy to see things looking full and open. But, like I said, maybe a little slow on growth.

I just needed a smack on the head and reminded to stop wanting things to "hurry up." I know rushing anything in this hobby is BAD. I know this!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yeah, that should do it. I’ve heard to many people running in to issues down the line when trying to get their levels up with pure dosing of nutrients when the dry rock is soaking it all up.
I’d personally rather stick to your plan of feeding more. That should also have the benefit of feeding the micro fauna.

What sort of issues? From doing what exactly?

Feeding more carries it's own baggage and often fails since dry rock can suck up a ton of phosphate and not any nitrate, leading to a permanent imbalance unless you somehow dose or feed heavy in P and not in N.

 

[sugar]

What sort of issues? From doing what exactly?

Feeding more carries it's own baggage and often fails since dry rock can suck up a ton of phosphate and not any nitrate, leading to a permanent imbalance unless you somehow dose or feed heavy in P and not in N.

The famed Randy Holmes-Farley replied to a message on my thread!!! :star-struck:

Sounds like doing too much of one or the other is detrimental. I'll focus on monitoring the inhabitants and how they appear to be doing, and respond accordingly. It had seemed as though the corals weren't as extended and full as they should be, and minimal growth, but they appear to be slowly coming out of that with slightly increasing food sources (and no longer battling with... dinos).

At the end of the day it all seems and can be so simple, but I know when I let my mind wander, I'm into over-analyzing and spiraling out of control!

 

[ReefGeezer]

Great looking tank! Your tank is not really heavily stocked. The fish you have are small. The inverts are not really adding much to the bioload. The corals are actually using nutrients so they are reducing the bioload. I would not count them when considering stock levels. The Caulerpa is also using nitrate and phosphate as it grows. So... you have some small fish producing nutrients for a host of nutrient users. It will be hard to get nutrients up with that imbalance.

Feeding heavily isn't the answer if there are not enough fish to convert the food to nutrients needed by the rest of the food chain. Overfeeding the fish to produce nutrients can result in the "Baggage" that Randy pointed out. My answer would be to add fish and feed them on the heavy side, but not overfeed.

I know it takes a while to add fish and see a rise in nutrients. In the interim, you can CAREFULLY dose a nitrogen source (Ammonia Chloride or Sodium Nitrate solution) and a phosphate source (Sodium Nitrate Solution) to maintain detectable levels. Make sure you have a test kit capable of reading less than .1 ppm of phosphate and keep the level below .1 ppm if you can. 5-10 ppm of nitrate seems to be a good level to maintain.

BTW... Someone mentioned AB+ to help solve your problem. I will agree that this is a good product. I use it. However, be very careful. It is very carbon rich and could cause the same problems as over feeding if over used. Start at no more than half the recommended dosage.

 

[jda]

I see nothing in those photos that would indicate that anything in the tank is nitrogen or phosphorous limited. Maybe have a loved one hide your no3 and po4 test kits from you. If you are seeing those Z&P make new polyps and everything else grow, then just keep on keeping on.

 

[sugar]

Great looking tank! Your tank is not really heavily stocked. The fish you have are small. The inverts are not really adding much to the bioload. The corals are actually using nutrients so they are reducing the bioload. I would not count them when considering stock levels. The Caulerpa is also using nitrate and phosphate as it grows. So... you have some small fish producing nutrients for a host of nutrient users. It will be hard to get nutrients up with that imbalance.

Feeding heavily isn't the answer if there are not enough fish to convert the food to nutrients needed by the rest of the food chain. Overfeeding the fish to produce nutrients can result in the "Baggage" that Randy pointed out. My answer would be to add fish and feed them on the heavy side, but not overfeed.

I know it takes a while to add fish and see a rise in nutrients. In the interim, you can CAREFULLY dose a nitrogen source (Ammonia Chloride or Sodium Nitrate solution) and a phosphate source (Sodium Nitrate Solution) to maintain detectable levels. Make sure you have a test kit capable of reading less than .1 ppm of phosphate and keep the level below .1 ppm if you can. 5-10 ppm of nitrate seems to be a good level to maintain.

BTW... Someone mentioned AB+ to help solve your problem. I will agree that this is a good product. I use it. However, be very careful. It is very carbon rich and could cause the same problems as over feeding if over used. Start at no more than half the recommended dosage.

Thank you! I thought I was overstocked for sure, and maybe I could be if all of the fish were fully grown... but that will be a while yet. I do have a larger system hopefully on its way, so all of this info will still apply and I will need to employ it when I'm going through the same thing but on a bigger scale!

Okay, going forward I definitely won't over feed, but yes, I do like to feed on the heavier side. I just won't overdo it. I'll look at carefully dosing N&P and monitoring to see how my system reacts to it, keeping in mind things are not dire right now and doing anything too much or too fast is going to get me into trouble.

That bit about the imbalance of my nutrient producers and consumers hit home for me. That really put things into perspective, and realized I was a bit off in my thinking.

I did not realize I'd learn so much from asking my question!! This is awesome. Hopefully it helps anyone else who may stumble upon this thread!

 

[sugar]

I see nothing in those photos that would indicate that anything in the tank is nitrogen or phosphorous limited. Maybe have a loved one hide your no3 and po4 test kits from you. If you are seeing those Z&P make new polyps and everything else grow, then just keep on keeping on.

Literally, I need to seek help. I'll get my boyfriend to hid a few things tonight :grinning-face-with-sweat: As if he doesn't already think I'm insane.

 

[jda]

That imbalance can/will shift in time. The true nitrogen cycle is a cycle, as in ongoing cyclical thing that changes and adapts. While aragonite might be binding po4 now with low water levels, the aragonite will start to fill up and po4 will rise. If you leave that sandbed alone, it will likely start to develop anaerobic bacteria that will use no3 and turn it into N gas. In a year from now, your po4 could be climbing and no3 be near zero.

Your tank looks fine, so don't change anything. If you feel a compulsion to tinker, maybe read up on how the biology and chemistry can change as tanks mature. Also, read up on most supplements and additives that people want to sell you when these transition times come are actually complete garbage.

My whole point was this: if you didn't have those no3 and po4 test kits, then you would never have even suspected an issue, right? That is not to say that you don't need to know how no3 and po4 are trending since they are waste products that can cause issues as they rise, but you also don't NEED to do anything about it in most cases (at least not as much as many people do). Unhide your test kits after the new years and start to document the trend.

 

[DenverSaltyFarm]

I’m in the same boat as you constantly dosing nitrates and phosphate solution to keep my nutrients up. I’m also monitoring daily with Hanna checkers because there will be a shift where rock and sand stop absorbing so I need to catch that when it happens