I have only captive bread fish in my tank. Also the corals. Having that option I cannot justify having wild caught fish at all... just because fish are small doesn't mean they don't deserve respect and kindness.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Kudoes to this perception. Much of the sentiment on captive breed seems to be fear based. I try not to allow my emotions to overrule my logic.There are so many arguments for and against captive bred.
One important thing that seems to be forgotten here is the value of the fish and nature for the people living near them. When we pay 10 or 100 times more than the food value for a fish or when good paying tourists come to look at them they get a value for the locals.
I believe the Aquarium and Tourist industrys are important factors to decrease the damage from dynamite and cyanide fishing. And locals in more countries are today proud of their nature. I personally am happy to see people proud of their nature at home just as i am.
I think it is important for those countries that we continue to buy fish from them.
And on their side effective control that no populations are harmed by overfishing.
I think we should avoid to buy any wild cought fish for more than 100 dollars or so.
That is a clear indication that the population of that fish is vulnerable.
Same for meif i can buy captive bred, i will. if i cannot, then i still would.
Yup, and I'm with the fishes. If they look nice and need a home I will not question their origin as a reason to buy or not. They can't help who their parents are.I heard the opposite. I've heard that captive bred fish are more susceptible to disease since they are raised in disease free facilities which makes them less hardy. Plus deformities from line breeding can/will happen. I'm not against captive bred fish, I buy them when I can, but I don't think you're as safe as you think you are by buying them. As soon as they hit the fish store and get mixed in with wild caught fish, the diseases can start. And in my mind, being captive bred, they don't have the immunity to fight and win this battle. Kind of like when the Europeans landed in America, they were carriers of all kinds of nasty viruses that killed the natives quickly since there was no natural immunity built up. The viruses had little to no effect on the Europeans since they were immune or mostly immune to them. Who knows, just a thought.
Of course, but many people will not like them. I think captive bred is the future of this hobby only because we are taking and killing way to many fish from the sea.Herd immunity works with people & fish. Any thoughts on this @Paul B
I personally love the idea of purchasing captive fish, but not at the cost that's being presented.
So it is not "mean" to keep fish in tiny boxes if they don't know any different?To take a fish from the ocean and put into an aquarium is mean!
Very valid points. I try to look at it from the perspective of should it be done? I think so...but not for profit.Table talk conversation here but any idea of how much work it is to bring captive bred, or raised fish to market? So much effort into that IP it is mind boggling and I'm not even in that line of work but my head explodes just thinking about it. Suitable fish, finding pairs, larva, food, culling, when to ship, and more. All goes out the window if the fish decide they don't want to spawn. Then what?
I'm not sure cost is the right discussion to have here. Especially since I'm not seeing evidence that the main three players today are living the life like the Wolf of Wallstreet. We can shut all wild imports, fish and coral, and this hobby will survive. The only difference is we would have less ornamental fish selection.
I know you said you like the idea thus me saying table talk discussion. Cost point I think is incorrect due to the herculean effort they go through to bring animals to market. Of course I can be wrong and total off track
Not in great detail, I'm sure we both can agree that the list you provided is not "all inclusive" and that it's an expensive venture. And my hats off to them for putting in the immense time and effort in experimenting with different schedules to rear a fish to a healthy specimen. However, in order for this to be a viable business model, you either have to change the hearts and minds of people by selling the idea that this statement is true:Table talk conversation here but any idea of how much work it is to bring captive bred, or raised fish to market?
Or the prices of wild caught would have to be more expensive than purchasing captive bred.To take a fish from the ocean and put into an aquarium is mean!
Captive breeding is in its infancy and the Wolfs of Wallstreet haven't hit their stride yet. You have to at least agree that they've actively discussed how to get more market share. That's business 101, and if you agree with that then you have to realize that they've set out to change the narrative in their favor, either through marketing, titans of the industry, influencers etc or all the above.I'm not sure cost is the right discussion to have here. Especially since I'm not seeing evidence that the main three players today are living the life like the Wolf of Wallstreet. We can shut all wild imports, fish and coral, and this hobby will survive. The only difference is we would have less ornamental fish selection.
I would disagree for the sheer fact that just like everything in this hobby, prices go up for no real reason. And I always attribute it to the revolving door which is this hobby. People come and go and there's very little continuity. For example, a new hobbyist would read through all these threads with tanks packed with coral and fish, and then go look to see what it would costs only to conclude, "This is what I need to spend in order to have a thriving fish tank". Little do they know that almost 4 years ago (when I set up my current tank) prices were a lot cheaper, a purple tang was $32 from my LFS.Cost point I think is incorrect
Very valid points. I try to look at it from the perspective of should it be done? I think so...but not for profit.
Not in great detail, I'm sure we both can agree that the list you provided is not "all inclusive" and that it's an expensive venture. And my hats off to them for putting in the immense time and effort in experimenting with different schedules to rear a fish to a healthy specimen. However, in order for this to be a viable business model, you either have to change the hearts and minds of people by selling the idea that this statement is true:
Or the prices of wild caught would have to be more expensive than purchasing captive bred.
If you've been paying attention, you've probably read or heard people speculating that in the near future we won't have the option of wild caught and the only thing we can fall back on is captive bread. We don't know if that is going to happen, but it can definitely be spun to promote sales for captive bred fish. Viewing it from that lens, whenever you hear or read someone spouting that information, you have to ask yourself, "What's their angle?", "what's the ulterior motive?". And I'm not talking about the parroted information constantly being regurgitated by the unsuspecting hobbyist, I'm talking about from the originator. Maybe the answer to both those questions is, "There isn't one". I tend to disagree with that though.
Captive breeding is in its infancy and the Wolfs of Wallstreet haven't hit their stride yet. You have to at least agree that they've actively discussed how to get more market share. That's business 101, and if you agree with that then you have to realize that they've set out to change the narrative in their favor, either through marketing, titans of the industry, influencers etc or all the above.
I would disagree for the sheer fact that just like everything in this hobby, prices go up for no real reason. And I always attribute it to the revolving door which is this hobby. People come and go and there's very little continuity. For example, a new hobbyist would read through all these threads with tanks packed with coral and fish, and then go look to see what it would costs only to conclude, "This is what I need to spend in order to have a thriving fish tank". Little do they know that almost 4 years ago (when I set up my current tank) prices were a lot cheaper, a purple tang was $32 from my LFS.
Of course, it can all be explained by supply and demand, heavy on the demand because "New to the Hobby Guy" doesn't know what the cost should be and shells out the cash anyway. I know I digressed, my point being that the longer this goes on captive bred will be competitive and if I'm in the minority when I say, "That's unacceptable" then so be it.
If we can have a world where people shell out 5x for a captive bred yellow tang and still have to option to purchase a wild caught for $50 then disregard everything I said. But we know that's not going to happen.
A good macna talk would mean divulging trade secrets. I fear that what we get now is all we're going to ever get. It will never be like it was in the old days when people would share what nutrients were critical at particular points of fish growth.I've been hoping for a good MACNA talk on it.
Those are great examples. Definitely a plus when it comes to breeding fish that are hard to capture or rare to see in the ocean.True. In some cases otherwise unavailable fish (in the US) or expensive are now readily available and affordable. Cuban Basslet is a good example. Used to be North of $3,000 US but now $600. The Flathead Perch is another good example.
I definitely don't want to derail the conversation to talk about corals. The biggest difference I see between the 2 is that anyone can grow and propagate coral with a certain degree of success. But not everyone can rear fish fry. And I don't think what's stopping the ones that would want to is money, space, equipment etc, it's the knowledge to do so.We are talking about fish but what about those 1/4" named SPS frags or a single LPS head of a 24k holy moly torch?
That should go without saying...On that note though I did want to say that I can always count on you to provide a well thought out and peaceful post. Even if there are points we do not agree on or if you are thinking I'm out there - you always are respectful. So rare. Thank you.
Absolutely! I have great luck with fat healthy fish that came from a well established tank. My LFS charges extra...but it is worth it. I love captive bred, but unfortunately my tank was pretty much stocked before I could get a captive bred specimen. I only buy fish from my LFS, and they just started getting some different varieties in.What are my favorite kind of fish? Consignment fish, ie: fish that come from a good home/tank that's being shutdown. No shipping stress, generally disease-free, well-adapted to other tank mates, used to a wide variety of pellet and frozen food. I have a pair of clownfish, flame hawkfish, female lamarck's angelfish and white tail bristletooth tang - all acquired in the last year and all model citizens for the most part (yes, we're looking at you clownfish).
I have one now and its been somewhat of a struggleI'm all for captive bred fish...with the exception of the matted filefish. Stealth Ninja corallivores with no appetite for aiptasia? When almost all other filefish are so much lovelier and more personable? Ugh.