Carbon dosing -- Nopox dosage Q

[Lyss]

Hi All,

I've been dosing Nopox for months now -- it must be at least 3 -- and am still trying to dial in my dosage. I have been going REALLY slow so as not to run into any of the typical issues folks can run into when carbon dosing. Things were going well and I was beginning to see a reduction in nitrates about a month ago, and then I overdosed aminos and gave myself a nice green cyano bloom all over the sand -- I had to cut the nopox way back b/c once that happened it was just fueling the cyano. Got the cyano under control after a couple water changes and a good sand vac + no more aminos and a big reduction in nopox dosing, then began increasing the nopox dose again.

So all that is to say, I feel like I've started over again b/c of the cyano debacle. As of now I'm at 3ml daily in my 20g and am only seeing that dose essentially act as a maintenance dose. So my Q to all of you who carbon dose and use nopox is, do you find it's common to go over the recommended dose? Should I expect to just keep doing small increases until I see the reduction, and then once I get to where I want drop it back to establish a maintenance dose?

 

[SPR1968]

You can go over the recommended dose, but I would say only if your familiar with how it works, but I would just ask what your nitrate level is at ?

You don’t need to add anything to the system, like amino’s unless you’ve found it’s necessary. I don’t add anything like that to either of my systems (which are very big) apart from an occasional splash of reef energy or reef roids but that’s 1-2 times a month if that.

There are countless products out there sold as essential that really arnt needed and cause more problems than they prevent

 

[Lyss]

You can go over the recommended dose, but I would say only if your familiar with how it works, but I would just ask what your nitrate level is at ?

You don’t need to add anything to the system, like amino’s unless you’ve found it’s necessary. I don’t add anything like that to either of my systems (which are very big) apart from an occasional splash of reef energy or reef roids but that’s 1-2 times a month if that.

There are countless products out there sold as essential that really arnt needed and cause more problems than they prevent

So, before the cyano incident I was at 25 - 30ppm nitrates and they were beginning to reduce. My goal was to get to somewhere between 10 and 15ppm, b/c I'd like to be able to start adding some easy SPS, and would also like to be able to drop back weekly water changes. And then I def learned my lesson about aminos -- won't do that again.

Over the past month I've been experimenting and haven't done any water changes. I started after my last water change at about 25 ppm and 2ml nopox. That climbed to about 50ppm, and I increased the nopox dose to 2.5ml, saw no change, then increased again to 3, where I am now. That's how I'm getting the idea that my daily dose is mostly just maintenance.

I understand exactly how carbon dosing works, and that's why I've been so careful about how much I dose and only doing small increases at a time. I'm planning on a water change tomorrow, and then see where the nopox will get me at 3ml.

 

[SPR1968]

In a tank that size water changes would be my first suggestion to keep nitrates under control as there a relatively easy solution and then you don’t need to add chemicals/carbon dosing

If you want to use Nopox, just increase the dose slowly over a period of weeks until Nitrate starts to fall. Basically follow the instructions

When I used it, at one point in my S650 I was at around triple the maximum stated dose so yes you can go higher but you need to keep an eye of for certain signs like bacterial blooms such as white slime forming and then back of a little. You will also probably get a white haze on the glass at higher doses as well which needs cleaning every few days.

 

[Lyss]

In a tank that size water changes would be my first suggestion to keep nitrates under control as their a relatively easy solution and then you don’t need to add chemicals/carbon dosing

If you want to use Nopox, just increase the dose slowly over a period of weeks until Nitrate starts to fall. Basically follow the instructions

When I used it, at one point in my S650 I was at around triple the maximum stated dose so yes you can go higher but you need to keep an eye of for certain signs like bacterial blooms such as white slime forming and then back of a little. You will also probably get a white haze on the glass at higher doses as well which needs cleaning every few days.

Thank you! I was worried about dosing over the recommended amount. I'll keep going slow and see how it goes... Worst case I can fall back to weekly water changes.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

You can go over the recommended dose, but I would say only if your familiar with how it works, but I would just ask what your nitrate level is at ?

You don’t need to add anything to the system, like amino’s unless you’ve found it’s necessary. I don’t add anything like that to either of my systems (which are very big) apart from an occasional splash of reef energy or reef roids but that’s 1-2 times a month if that.

There are countless products out there sold as essential that really arnt needed and cause more problems than they prevent

Adding organic carbon based products should be avoided, this because the natural C/N ratio is removed and a balance between reducers and producers is made impossible. Some will like this because it prevents algae to grow, even when having a high nitrate level.

Good food provides everything needed. The C/N ratio ( the protein content) of the food does have a huge influence on the nitrate production in a closed environment.

On what the advise is based one may go over the recomended dose? What is the effect of overdosing?
What is the relation between the nitrate level and the daily dose of Nopox knowing fast growing bacteria prefer ammonia as a nitrogen source.
Dosing carbohydrates only based on the nitrate level may result in overdosing and will remove autrotrophic carying capacity previously installed conditioning the tank .

I totally agree with what was written in your last sentence.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Hi All,

I've been dosing Nopox for months now -- it must be at least 3 -- and am still trying to dial in my dosage. I have been going REALLY slow so as not to run into any of the typical issues folks can run into when carbon dosing. Things were going well and I was beginning to see a reduction in nitrates about a month ago, and then I overdosed aminos and gave myself a nice green cyano bloom all over the sand -- I had to cut the nopox way back b/c once that happened it was just fueling the cyano. Got the cyano under control after a couple water changes and a good sand vac + no more aminos and a big reduction in nopox dosing, then began increasing the nopox dose again.

So all that is to say, I feel like I've started over again b/c of the cyano debacle. As of now I'm at 3ml daily in my 20g and am only seeing that dose essentially act as a maintenance dose. So my Q to all of you who carbon dose and use nopox is, do you find it's common to go over the recommended dose? Should I expect to just keep doing small increases until I see the reduction, and then once I get to where I want drop it back to establish a maintenance dose?

Dosing organic carbon and carbohydrate based products should be avoided.

On what parameter dosing is based? Dosing organic carbon should be based on the daily nitrogen overproduction,.

Nopox and amino accids? Please explain why combining both? How you do know you have overdosed amino's and not nopox or both? cyano bloom? Sure it was cyano? What would be the connection between cyano and aminio accids availability? Cyano are photo-autotrophic bacteria,. they make their own amino acids.

Cutting nopox for certain will fuel photo- autotrophic growth and lucky for you it did because adding Nopox does remove previously installed autotrophic carying capacity ( nitrate production) resulting in a very high ammonia availability.

 

[Lyss]

Dosing organic carbon and carbohydrate based products should be avoided.

On what parameter dosing is based? Dosing organic carbon should be based on the daily nitrogen overproduction,.

Nopox and amino accids? Please explain why combining both? How you do know you have overdosed amino's and not nopox or both? cyano bloom? Sure it was cyano? What would be the connection between cyano and aminio accids availability? Cyano are photo-autotrophic bacteria,. they make their own amino acids.

Cutting nopox for certain will fuel photo- autotrophic growth and lucky for you it did because adding Nopox does remove previously installed autotrophic carying capacity ( nitrate production) resulting in a very high ammonia availability.

Hi, I think you may have misread -- I tried aminos once for a few doses and found out the hard way that was a bad idea. That is now over and done with, cyano gone and problem solved. 100% sure it was a green cyano. I've also read in numerous places that overdosing aminos can result in cyano.

I know the green cyano did not come from nopox b/c it never happened until the aminos, and hasn't come back since. Problem over. I mentioned it b/c I had to start from square one again w/the nopox dose b/c of that.

I'm not sure what you're saying at the end there.

I understand some ppl do not agree with carbon dosing, but I have had good effects until I made the mistake using the aminos, and plan to continue for now. Like I mentioned on my last post when this was resolved, I am VERY slowly increasing the dosage as needed and monitoring closely. My reef looks great and everything has been doing well. I add PNS bacteria as well, weekly, and have read that they can respond to carbon dosing.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Dosing organic carbon and carbohydrate based products should be avoided.

On what parameter dosing is based? Dosing organic carbon should be based on the daily nitrogen overproduction,.

Nopox and amino accids? Please explain why combining both? How you do know you have overdosed amino's and not nopox or both? cyano bloom? Sure it was cyano? What would be the connection between cyano and aminio accids availability? Cyano are photo-autotrophic bacteria,. they make their own amino acids.

Cutting nopox for certain will fuel photo- autotrophic growth and lucky for you it did because adding Nopox does remove previously installed autotrophic carying capacity ( nitrate production) resulting in a very high ammonia availability.

Dosing organic carbon and carbohydrate based products should be avoided.

On what parameter dosing is based? Dosing organic carbon can be based on the daily nitrogen overproduction, If based on the nutrient level one should target the phosphate level this to avoid phosphate may become the growth limiting factor.

Nopox and amino accids? Please explain why combining both? How do you know you have overdosed amino's and not nopox or both, or there is no connection at all. ? cyano bloom? Sure it was cyano? What would be the connection between cyano and aminio accids availability? Cyano are photo-autotrophic bacteria,. producers, they make their own amino acids.

Cutting or building off nopox for certain will fuel photo- autotrophic growth and lucky for you it did because adding Nopox does remove previously installed autotrophic carying capacity ( ammonia reduction due to nitrate production) resulting in high free ammonia availability if suddenly not enough carbon can be retrieved. Suddenly building off carbon dosing will always result in an ammonia spike and should be avoided by building of the dose very slowly , over a period of several days, or even weeks, depending on the dose that has been supplied. Reinstalling the autotrophic carrying capacity removed due to dosing organic carbon will need time.

Using organic carbon for reducing safely stored usable nitrogen is about the cure being worse the disease ever may be.
The addition of carbohydrates must be done with enough basic knowledge and only by who understand the consequences of improper dosing of organic carbon and especially of improper stopping dosing.
The nitrate or and phosphate level does not kill. There is no known reason to threat it as an emergency.

Ref: MB vodka Anthias 2019-2020

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Hi, I think you may have misread -- I tried aminos once for a few doses and found out the hard way that was a bad idea. That is now over and done with, cyano gone and problem solved. 100% sure it was a green cyano. I've also read in numerous places that overdosing aminos can result in cyano.

I know the green cyano did not come from nopox b/c it never happened until the aminos, and hasn't come back since. Problem over. I mentioned it b/c I had to start from square one again w/the nopox dose b/c of that.

I'm not sure what you're saying at the end there.

I understand some ppl do not agree with carbon dosing, but I have had good effects until I made the mistake using the aminos, and plan to continue for now. Like I mentioned on my last post when this was resolved, I am VERY slowly increasing the dosage as needed and monitoring closely. My reef looks great and everything has been doing well. I add PNS bacteria as well, weekly, and have read that they can respond to carbon dosing.

Why the addition of amino accids was considered a mistake? And not Nopox?

 

[Lyss]

Why the addition of amino accids was considered a mistake? And not Nopox?

Sorry, I've already answered that more than once. This question was resolved last week so I'm all good.

Edit: Also, I think you're telling me things I already know. I am also knowledgeable about carbon dosing and what exactly I am doing. I am also knowledgeable about the relationship of phosphate. I also have not treated anything as an emergency -- I was only asking a simple question that was answered last week. All in all I really am just fine but thank you for your input.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Hi, I think you may have misread -- I tried aminos once for a few doses and found out the hard way that was a bad idea. That is now over and done with, cyano gone and problem solved. 100% sure it was a green cyano. I've also read in numerous places that overdosing aminos can result in cyano.

I know the green cyano did not come from nopox b/c it never happened until the aminos, and hasn't come back since. Problem over. I mentioned it b/c I had to start from square one again w/the nopox dose b/c of that.

I'm not sure what you're saying at the end there.

I understand some ppl do not agree with carbon dosing, but I have had good effects until I made the mistake using the aminos, and plan to continue for now. Like I mentioned on my last post when this was resolved, I am VERY slowly increasing the dosage as needed and monitoring closely. My reef looks great and everything has been doing well. I add PNS bacteria as well, weekly, and have read that they can respond to carbon dosing.

it is not about disagreement, it is about managing a system based on correct information.
You say you had good effects until you made the mistake using amino. Maybe the mistake was already made before using the amino? Why blaming the amino? As explained, once dosing organic carbon one is not able to stop suddenly or change doses without consequences for the existing balance. And this may lead to the unexpected or unwanted. Observation does not tell us what has happened without knowing how it works.
Corals are bleaching. The nitrate and phosphate levels are abnormal high and increasing. Observation tels me the nutrient levels are causing coral bleaching. Knowledge tells me the increasing nutrient levels are the messengers, wat is measured is the result of what is happening, not the cause.

Why the addition of amino acids was considered a mistake? And not Nopox? They both have been added with the intention providing organic carbon. Amino acids also provide nitrogen so they should be dosed based on the phosphate availability. Amino- acids are skim-able, some are hydrophilic and not skim-able. So, it depends on what is in the bottle it is a complete waist of money or not. Normally protein is broken down into amino acids.

What is are the active ingredients of Nopox? I never add products to the tank not knowing what they maintain exactly. The active and all other ingredients should be on the leaflet.

You add bacteria? why? What bacteria you are able to add that are not already present? All heterotrophic bacteria respond to carbon dosing, but most of all those we call r-strategists, they are very small and grow incredibaly fast when all nutrients are available, dying very fast when everything is used up. They profit of situations in which they do not have to waist much energy for braking down organics to retrieve organic carbon and other nutrients. Such high growth rates may cause local phosphorus starvation causing other slower growing cells to die off.

It has been shown the presence of carbohydrates may kill corals. ref: MB Vodka CMF De Haes 2017-2018

PNSB are able to aggressively consume excess nutrients and waste carbons, starving out other opportunistic bacteria in the process. Further, PNSB are able to utilize these wastes as they synthesize nutritious proteins, functional enzymes, antioxidizing carotenoids and golden fats. Their nutritious cells are feasted upon by ciliates, rotifers, protozoa and various other microconsortiom. PNSB are present in the gut flora of many organisms and I do not see a good reason to add them to the water column of a reef aquarium.
In aquaculture ( ZMAS) they are used in biofloc systems, maintaining a very high C/N ratio in the system ( not suitable for corals) ref: MB biofloc CMF De Haes 2019 - 2021 I do not see the benefits of adding PNSB in a reef aquarium but the cultivation of biofloc in a refuge for harvesting protein is not impossible, this way exporting nutrients without any algae growth. (for high nutrient systems)
In normal aquarium conditions they do not harm a thing as their growth is limited to the organic carbon availability as imposed by nature. To export nutrients, they have to be skim-able.



Stopping dosing provokes an ammonia spike but also provides a lot of inorganic nutrients not any more used up by fast bacterial growth. The fastest growing photo-autotrophs may profit the most due to lack of competition and because cyano are bacteria they are able to grow fast compared to most other photo-autotrophs. But also others may profit depending of the availability of one or more essential nutrients in which they are specialized. Until the nitrate production is reinstalled a lot of toxic ammonia will become available. Using nitrate as a nitrogen source slows down growth rates ( +- x 8) that makes natural competition for nutrients between organisms possible, this way eliminating or limiting sudden uncontrolable outbrakes.

Happy reefing.

 

[Lyss]

it is not about disagreement, it is about managing a system based on correct information.
You say you had good effects until you made the mistake using amino. Maybe the mistake was already made before using the amino? Why blaming the amino? As explained, once dosing organic carbon one is not able to stop suddenly or change doses without consequences for the existing balance. And this may lead to the unexpected or unwanted. Observation does not tell us what has happened without knowing how it works.
Corals are bleaching. The nitrate and phosphate levels are abnormal high and increasing. Observation tels me the nutrient levels are causing coral bleaching. Knowledge tells me the increasing nutrient levels are the messengers, wat is measured is the result of what is happening, not the cause.

Why the addition of amino acids was considered a mistake? And not Nopox? They both have been added with the intention providing organic carbon. Amino acids also provide nitrogen so they should be dosed based on the phosphate availability. Amino- acids are skim-able, some are hydrophilic and not skim-able. So, it depends on what is in the bottle it is a complete waist of money or not. Normally protein is broken down into amino acids.

What is are the active ingredients of Nopox? I never add products to the tank not knowing what they maintain exactly. The active and all other ingredients should be on the leaflet.

You add bacteria? why? What bacteria you are able to add that are not already present? All heterotrophic bacteria respond to carbon dosing, but most of all those we call r-strategists, they are very small and grow incredibaly fast when all nutrients are available, dying very fast when everything is used up. They profit of situations in which they do not have to waist much energy for braking down organics to retrieve organic carbon and other nutrients. Such high growth rates may cause local phosphorus starvation causing other slower growing cells to die off.

It has been shown the presence of carbohydrates may kill corals. ref: MB Vodka CMF De Haes 2017-2018

PNSB are able to aggressively consume excess nutrients and waste carbons, starving out other opportunistic bacteria in the process. Further, PNSB are able to utilize these wastes as they synthesize nutritious proteins, functional enzymes, antioxidizing carotenoids and golden fats. Their nutritious cells are feasted upon by ciliates, rotifers, protozoa and various other microconsortiom. PNSB are present in the gut flora of many organisms and I do not see a good reason to add them to the water column of a reef aquarium.
In aquaculture ( ZMAS) they are used in biofloc systems, maintaining a very high C/N ratio in the system ( not suitable for corals) ref: MB biofloc CMF De Haes 2019 - 2021 I do not see the benefits of adding PNSB in a reef aquarium but the cultivation of biofloc in a refuge for harvesting protein is not impossible, this way exporting nutrients without any algae growth. (for high nutrient systems)
In normal aquarium conditions they do not harm a thing as their growth is limited to the organic carbon availability as imposed by nature. To export nutrients, they have to be skim-able.



Stopping dosing provokes an ammonia spike but also provides a lot of inorganic nutrients not any more used up by fast bacterial growth. The fastest growing photo-autotrophs may profit the most due to lack of competition and because cyano are bacteria they are able to grow fast compared to most other photo-autotrophs. But also others may profit depending of the availability of one or more essential nutrients in which they are specialized. Until the nitrate production is reinstalled a lot of toxic ammonia will become available. Using nitrate as a nitrogen source slows down growth rates ( +- x 8) that makes natural competition for nutrients between organisms possible, this way eliminating or limiting sudden uncontrolable outbrakes.

Happy reefing.

Sigh. Again, thank you but this is really not necessary. I'm kindly asking you to please stop now.

 

[Lyss]

Following up on this...

I increased the NoPox dose to 4 ml and... IT WORKED! For the first time since the system has been up and running (about 11 months) I tested below 25 ppm last week (13 ppm), today 6 ppm nitrate and .06 phosphate. I'm planning to lower the dose a bit now to get to a maintenance dose b/c I do not want nutrients to get much lower than that. No ill effects, no crazy slime bacteria everywhere.

What I did to get here was VERY slowly increase the NoPox dose from when I first began to use it, over the course of months, and since writing the initial post here I used a bottle of PNS Substrate Sauce, dosed on the weeks I didn't do a water change. I've also been using AF Life Source to help the tank mature.

My tank has never looked cleaner, especially the water -- it's more crystal clear than I even realized it could be. I am able to feed more as well, with monthly water changes, which I love. Corals look bright and happy, fish and inverts are doing incredibly well. Everything is looking great.