Carbon dosing questions

Oregon Grown Reef

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I have higher nutrients in my 40b w/ a 29 gal sump (total of 50 gal water volume). My nitrates are 24.9 and my phosphates are 0.21. The nitrates were much higher recently, but I did a few water changes to bring them down to these levels. I started carbon dosing (vinegar) today following the dosing chart on reefkeeping.com.

Questions are:

1. How often should I test nitrate and phosphate? Do I need to test more often up front and less once I reach acceptable levels (5-10 nitrate, 0.05-0.1 phosphate)? I was reading that some people don't see improvements for several months. Not sure if I can stick with testing every day for that long.

2. Some places say that you cut back dosing amounts up to 50% once levels are achieved. This seems like a lot to cut back. Is that correct?

3. Is GAC required to use while carbon dosing?

4. I've seen people dose this with kalkwasser. As my alk consumption rises from all of the glorious growth I'll get as a result of carbon dosing, I'll want to start adding kalkwasser.
Per reefkeeping.com, "When dripping vinegar it is best to not dilute it too much or store the diluted vinegar too long since diluted vinegar can be broken down by bacteria in the dispensing vessel reducing the amount of carbon dosed. Dilution and delivery the same day is fine, but a 10% vinegar plus 90% water solution is not likely stable over the course of a week or two."
Would I be able to add vinegar to a 5 gallon bucket of kalk and use it over a month or more without worrying about it being broken down? If this isn't how it's done, what would you recommend?
 

Dan_P

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I have higher nutrients in my 40b w/ a 29 gal sump (total of 50 gal water volume). My nitrates are 24.9 and my phosphates are 0.21. The nitrates were much higher recently, but I did a few water changes to bring them down to these levels. I started carbon dosing (vinegar) today following the dosing chart on reefkeeping.com.

Questions are:

1. How often should I test nitrate and phosphate? Do I need to test more often up front and less once I reach acceptable levels (5-10 nitrate, 0.05-0.1 phosphate)?
Test daily if you can, both nitrate and phosphate, at first, then less often when you are dosing the maintenance dose.

I was reading that some people don't see improvements for several months. Not sure if I can stick with testing every day for that long.

The dosing charts I have seen are improperly scaled for tank size though at the low end the chart might be correct. Also, the dose increase in the chart is very slow. You can increase it more quickly. How your livestock responds will tell you if you are increasing the dose too quickly. As the daily dose gets larger, split it over the day. I have found at about 1 mL per gallon, bacteria growth becomes visible and nitrate drops quickly.

2. Some places say that you cut back dosing amounts up to 50% once levels are achieved. This seems like a lot to cut back. Is that correct?

When you reach your target level, start reducing the dose until the nitrate starts to increase. At that point you found approximately what your maintenance dose should be.

3. Is GAC required to use while carbon dosing?


Skimmer is needed, not GAC.

4. I've seen people dose this with kalkwasser. As my alk consumption rises from all of the glorious growth I'll get as a result of carbon dosing, I'll want to start adding kalkwasser.

Dose separately until the maintenance dose is achieved. You may need to adjust amounts of each separate,y.

Per reefkeeping.com, "When dripping vinegar it is best to not dilute it too much or store the diluted vinegar too long since diluted vinegar can be broken down by bacteria in the dispensing vessel reducing the amount of carbon dosed. Dilution and delivery the same day is fine, but a 10% vinegar plus 90% water solution is not likely stable over the course of a week or two."
Would I be able to add vinegar to a 5 gallon bucket of kalk and use it over a month or more without worrying about it being broken down? If this isn't how it's done, what would you recommend?
Don’t dilute the vinegar. Bacteria will grow in it. Best to use a doser or add small portions during the day. Dilution and using it within a day could be OK if you must..
 
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Test daily if you can, both nitrate and phosphate, at first, then less often when you are dosing the maintenance dose.



The dosing charts I have seen are improperly scaled for tank size though at the low end the chart might be correct. Also, the dose increase in the chart is very slow. You can increase it more quickly. How your livestock responds will tell you if you are increasing the dose too quickly. As the daily dose gets larger, split it over the day. I have found at about 1 mL per gallon, bacteria growth becomes visible and nitrate drops quickly.



When you reach your target level, start reducing the dose until the nitrate starts to increase. At that point you found approximately what your maintenance dose should be.




Skimmer is needed, not GAC.



Dose separately until the maintenance dose is achieved. You may need to adjust amounts of each separate,y.


Don’t dilute the vinegar. Bacteria will grow in it. Best to use a doser or add small portions during the day. Dilution and using it within a day could be OK if you must..
I appreciate the answers. This schedule has me stating at 1.5ml per day and ramping up to 15ml per day in a month. How much faster should I go?
 

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I am in the same boat. I just recently starting dosing NOPOX which is similar to vodka dosing and increasing water changes/maintenance on my 20 gallon tank. If you do dose you have to be careful about to avoid getting dinos. I dose less than 1 ML a day and test my nutrients daily with that. Even though it’s time consuming I notice them coming down. My nitrates from around 50 to 20 for me water changes alone weekly weren’t exactly helping. I also cleaned the back chambers really well and my sponges cleaning any buildup on them which I’d also recommend you do regularly in the sump. You can also increase the cuc to more snails if you don’t already. And yes a skimmed is needed to oxygenate the water well because carbon dosing can deplete oxygen especially if you get dinos. DON’T OVERDOSE!!!
 

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I appreciate the answers. This schedule has me stating at 1.5ml per day and ramping up to 15ml per day in a month. How much faster should I go?
I got to 1 mL/ gallon in 6-8 weeks, increasing the dose every 3-5 days. Your animals will indicate if you are going too fast or the dose increases are too large. My fish seemed to be acting jittery when the vinegar doses were too large and I switched to a doser, spreading the dose out evenly during the day.
 
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I am in the same boat. I just recently starting dosing NOPOX which is similar to vodka dosing and increasing water changes/maintenance on my 20 gallon tank. If you do dose you have to be careful about to avoid getting dinos. I dose less than 1 ML a day and test my nutrients daily with that. Even though it’s time consuming I notice them coming down. My nitrates from around 50 to 20 for me water changes alone weekly weren’t exactly helping. I also cleaned the back chambers really well and my sponges cleaning any buildup on them which I’d also recommend you do regularly in the sump. You can also increase the cuc to more snails if you don’t already. And yes a skimmed is needed to oxygenate the water well because carbon dosing can deplete oxygen especially if you get dinos. DON’T OVERDOSE!!!
I think the skimmer is needed as an export for the bacteria, but it does also serve the purpose of oxygenating. I put in an order last week for a six line wrasse and a refresher on the snails, although I still have a good number left. Nopox contains several forms of carbon (vodka, sugar, and vinegar). I've read that if you get cyano, you can try dosing only one form as the type of cyano you have may not feed as readily on it. Just something to keep in mind if that pops up for you.
 
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I got to 1 mL/ gallon in 6-8 weeks, increasing the dose every 3-5 days. Your animals will indicate if you are going too fast or the dose increases are too large. My fish seemed to be acting jittery when the vinegar doses were too large and I switched to a doser, spreading the dose out evenly during the day.
Looks like I'll be getting another doser in the next month then. You've been very helpful. Thank you.
 
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Hey @Dan_P, at what point should I start dosing more than once per day? I am up to 13ml of vinegar and still increasing daily. I'll be at 20ml in 4 days. I started increasing the dosage daily since my nitrates are still rising.

Edit: Asking because I know it lowers pH. You said you switched it a dosing pump when the fish started acting jittery, but I can't observe them since I go to work right after I dose in the morning.
 
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Hey @Dan_P, at what point should I start dosing more than once per day? I am up to 13ml of vinegar and still increasing daily. I'll be at 20ml in 4 days. I started increasing the dosage daily since my nitrates are still rising.

Edit: Asking because I know it lowers pH. You said you switched it a dosing pump when the fish started acting jittery, but I can't observe them since I go to work right after I dose in the morning.
Oops, I may have posted too soon. I was waiting for my nitrate test results when I posted that. It decreased by 0.7 since yesterday. That may be testing variance, but I'll stick with yesterday's dosage and test again tomorrow to see if it continues to drop. I was at 10ml yesterday and was about to increase it to 13ml today. My guess is 10ml is not enough to warrant any pH concerns.
 

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Oops, I may have posted too soon. I was waiting for my nitrate test results when I posted that. It decreased by 0.7 since yesterday. That may be testing variance, but I'll stick with yesterday's dosage and test again tomorrow to see if it continues to drop. I was at 10ml yesterday and was about to increase it to 13ml today. My guess is 10ml is not enough to warrant any pH concerns.
Hope it’s going down.
 

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One question how are your corals going? If everything is happy why chase numbers?? If corals are looking sad look to reduce these numbers there are alternatives to carbon dosing, research shows long term issues with vinegar its only a bandaid solution.

How old is the tank?
 
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One question how are your corals going? If everything is happy why chase numbers?? If corals are looking sad look to reduce these numbers there are alternatives to carbon dosing, research shows long term issues with vinegar its only a bandaid solution.

How old is the tank?
All but 2 of my corals (which are zoas and a blasto) are dead. I've had this tank up for 1.5 years, but was unable to care for it for a couple of months this year due to a family medical emergency during which everything suffered greatly. I wasn't able to refill kalk reserves, do water changes, or feed adequately. As to why, my nitrates continually rise and I'm down to feeding once per day in which they consume the food in less than a minute. There are only 3 fish in the tank. The bacteria produced from carbon dosing acts as marine snow, which the corals will consume. It's to use in place of something like chaeto, which doesn't feed my corals, or having my system not rely on me to be around to feed them. There are pods galore in my rock filled sump which I clean to remove excess detritus, so there's another reason I don't need chaeto.

I can't seem to find any of the studies you're referring to. If you could post them that would be helpful.
 

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Are there any downfalls to dosing amino acids while carbon dosing?

Other than contributing more N that may become nitrate, and perhaps some more O2 lowering, no.
 

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I guess a better question would be do the corals really need it if they are able to consume the bacteria already produced from carbon dosing?

IMO, they do not “need” amino acids as evidenced by lack of problems in tanks not dosing them.

Might it help them grow faster? Possibly, especially in nitrate is very low.
 
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IMO, they do not “need” amino acids as evidenced by lack of problems in tanks not dosing them.

Might it help them grow faster? Possibly, especially in nitrate is very low.
My nitrate is anything but low. Thank you! Both you and @Dan_P have been very helpful. I appreciate you both.
 
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Interesting test results today. My nitrate came in at 27ppm. It hasn't been coming down despite now dosing 25mI of distilled vinegar. I haven't been testing phosphate as it was excessively high on 8/11 at 0.236ppm, so I figured there was more than enough for now. I read that carbon dosing doesn't lower phosphate at anywhere near the rate of nitrate, so I wasn't concerned about testing it until my nitrate started to come down. Since my nitrate hasn't been coming down, I tested phosphate anyways and it came out to 0.021ppm. How is it that my phosphate came down so much without nitrate coming down, and to such a degree? I dosed enough NeoPhos after the test per the directions on the bottle to bring it up to 0.06ppm since I'm wondering if it's phosphate limited and that's why it's not coming down. I'm using the Hanna High Range Nitrate and Hanna ULR Phosphorus Checkers.
 

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Interesting test results today. My nitrate came in at 27ppm. It hasn't been coming down despite now dosing 25mI of distilled vinegar. I haven't been testing phosphate as it was excessively high on 8/11 at 0.236ppm, so I figured there was more than enough for now. I read that carbon dosing doesn't lower phosphate at anywhere near the rate of nitrate, so I wasn't concerned about testing it until my nitrate started to come down. Since my nitrate hasn't been coming down, I tested phosphate anyways and it came out to 0.021ppm. How is it that my phosphate came down so much without nitrate coming down, and to such a degree? I dosed enough NeoPhos after the test per the directions on the bottle to bring it up to 0.06ppm since I'm wondering if it's phosphate limited and that's why it's not coming down. I'm using the Hanna High Range Nitrate and Hanna ULR Phosphorus Checkers.
Yes, it is possible to deplete PO4 to the point of slowing down nitrate consumption when carbon dosing. I don’t know whether there is an acceptable concentration of PO4 to stay above. You might have to experiment by dosing PO4 and waiting to see if nitrate consumption resumes.
 
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Yes, it is possible to deplete PO4 to the point of slowing down nitrate consumption when carbon dosing. I don’t know whether there is an acceptable concentration of PO4 to stay above. You might have to experiment by dosing PO4 and waiting to see if nitrate consumption resumes.
Is there a reason the phosphate would drop so drastically without nitrates falling at all? That's over 0.2ppm phosphate removed and 0 nitrates removed.
 

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