Carbon dosing vinegar with kalk

[ScottF]

I am on my second week of carbon dosing with vinegar. I had some kalkwasser so I saturated it to a point until it wasn't dissolving fully, then added small amounts of vinegar until there was no more particulate & fully clear. So, I guess this is 100% lime saturated vinegar. I did this because I read it helps minimize the ph swing caused by dosing straight vinegar.

I am also dosing 2-part with Balling C + DIY magnesium. I test Nitrate, Phos, Alk every single day and write it down, old school, even before I started dosing the vinegar solution. I have not seen any increase in Alk at all. Absolutely 0. In fact, it has actually trended down slightly, if anything. Is this normal? Zero increase in ph as well. Again, if anything, it has slightly trended down. I dose the entire amount in the middle of the day over 7 hours.

I know you guys don't have any faith in Ca home tests, but I've been doing Salifert every other day expecting to see some type of increase, even though it may not be an accurate number. Again, zilch, zero, nada. Salifert test kit has shown no sizeable increase with 7 different tests (every other day). Is this also normal? Am I doing something wrong? Both Nitrates & Phosphates have dropped slightly, phosphate moreso. That also has me a bit worried as everything I've read, the opposite should be occurring. On a side note, everything in the tank looks happy & healthy! So that's good!

Have you tested your magnesium? The alk and calcium will just precipitate out if your magnesium is too low.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am on my second week of carbon dosing with vinegar. I had some kalkwasser so I saturated it to a point until it wasn't dissolving fully, then added small amounts of vinegar until there was no more particulate & fully clear. So, I guess this is 100% lime saturated vinegar. I did this because I read it helps minimize the ph swing caused by dosing straight vinegar.

I am also dosing 2-part with Balling C + DIY magnesium. I test Nitrate, Phos, Alk every single day and write it down, old school, even before I started dosing the vinegar solution. I have not seen any increase in Alk at all. Absolutely 0. In fact, it has actually trended down slightly, if anything. Is this normal? Zero increase in ph as well. Again, if anything, it has slightly trended down. I dose the entire amount in the middle of the day over 7 hours.

I know you guys don't have any faith in Ca home tests, but I've been doing Salifert every other day expecting to see some type of increase, even though it may not be an accurate number. Again, zilch, zero, nada. Salifert test kit has shown no sizeable increase with 7 different tests (every other day). Is this also normal? Am I doing something wrong? Both Nitrates & Phosphates have dropped slightly, phosphate moreso. That also has me a bit worried as everything I've read, the opposite should be occurring. On a side note, everything in the tank looks happy & healthy! So that's good!

You said you are not seeing a calcium or alk rise, but do not say how much alk and calcium you are dosing, or what the actual values are.

In general, if neither alk nor calcium are rising, the first step is to add more since you may just be offsetting the demand.

 

[rishma]

I am on my second week of carbon dosing with vinegar. I had some kalkwasser so I saturated it to a point until it wasn't dissolving fully, then added small amounts of vinegar until there was no more particulate & fully clear. So, I guess this is 100% lime saturated vinegar. I did this because I read it helps minimize the ph swing caused by dosing straight vinegar.

I am also dosing 2-part with Balling C + DIY magnesium. I test Nitrate, Phos, Alk every single day and write it down, old school, even before I started dosing the vinegar solution. I have not seen any increase in Alk at all. Absolutely 0. In fact, it has actually trended down slightly, if anything. Is this normal? Zero increase in ph as well. Again, if anything, it has slightly trended down. I dose the entire amount in the middle of the day over 7 hours.

I know you guys don't have any faith in Ca home tests, but I've been doing Salifert every other day expecting to see some type of increase, even though it may not be an accurate number. Again, zilch, zero, nada. Salifert test kit has shown no sizeable increase with 7 different tests (every other day). Is this also normal? Am I doing something wrong? Both Nitrates & Phosphates have dropped slightly, phosphate moreso. That also has me a bit worried as everything I've read, the opposite should be occurring. On a side note, everything in the tank looks happy & healthy! So that's good!

A few thoughts to share:

Kalk saturated vinegar is about 2300 dKH. I don’t know your tank size or how much you dosed, but ~40ml dose would raise a 100L tank by about 1 dKH. Consider that and whether you are dosing as sighting amount of alkalinity.

If it’s not a big dose of alkalinity, then you might not detect a change in a week given normal test error and the fact that alkalinity consumption can change for lots of reasons.

Same thing applies to nitrate and phosphate changes. Normal test error and small changes often produce results that seem confusing. I’d watch the trend longer before reaching any conclusion.

While I personally don’t like home calcium tests, I think I’m definitely in the minority

 

[ScottF]

Correct on all accounts.


Nope. It doesn’t have that effect. The solution might get a little warm, but that’s about it.

I did notice that the solution did get a bit warm. Calcium hydroxide exhibits retrograde solubility in water, decreasing in solubility as the temperature of the solution increases.

I wonder how much more potent we can make the solution by letting it cool after the initial reaction and then trying to dissolve more kalk powder into it.

I currently have my mixing beaker in the refrigerator cooling down. I'm going to give a good stir once it is cold as I added way too much kalk to the vinegar. I'm used to mixing 55 gallons of kalk at a time. Not one gallon.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I did notice that the solution did get a bit warm. Calcium hydroxide exhibits retrograde solubility in water, decreasing in solubility as the temperature of the solution increases.

I wonder how much more potent we can make the solution by letting it cool after the initial reaction and then trying to dissolve more kalk powder into it.

I currently have my mixing beaker in the refrigerator cooling down. I'm going to give a good stir once it is cold as I added way too much kalk to the vinegar. I'm used to mixing 55 gallons of kalk at a time. Not one gallon.

Not much. Wikipedia gives this:

1.89 g/L (0 °C) 1.73 g/L (20 °C) 0.66 g/L (100 °C)

 

[ScottF]

A few thoughts to share:

Kalk saturated vinegar is about 2300 dKH. I don’t know your tank size or how much you dosed, but ~40ml dose would raise a 100L tank by about 1 dKH. Consider that and whether you are dosing as sighting amount of alkalinity.

If it’s not a big dose of alkalinity, then you might not detect a change in a week given normal test error and the fact that alkalinity consumption can change for lots of reasons.

Same thing applies to nitrate and phosphate changes. Normal test error and small changes often produce results that seem confusing. I’d watch the trend longer before reaching any conclusion.

While I personally don’t like home calcium tests, I think I’m definitely in the minority

To put this in perspective, I dose 6,500 mL of regular kalkwasser daily to my 250 gallon reef and this does not keep up with my calcium and alkalinity demand. Miami reefers chart recommends 62 mL of vinegar the first week for a 250 gallon system.

I doubt that the 62 mL of vinegar kalk (kalk-gar?) is going to make a big difference to the calcium and alk in my system.

 

[Ken S]

Have you tested your magnesium? The alk and calcium will just precipitate out if your magnesium is too low.

Salifert Mg a week ago and today shows 1200. Two ICP tests 2 weeks ago showed ATI 1241 and Oceamo-MS 1223.

 

[rishma]

A few thoughts to share:

Kalk saturated vinegar is about 2300 dKH. I don’t know your tank size or how much you dosed, but ~40ml dose would raise a 100L tank by about 1 dKH. Consider that and whether you are dosing as sighting amount of alkalinity.

If it’s not a big dose of alkalinity, then you might not detect a change in a week given normal test error and the fact that alkalinity consumption can change for lots of reasons.

Same thing applies to nitrate and phosphate changes. Normal test error and small changes often produce results that seem confusing. I’d watch the trend longer before reaching any conclusion.

While I personally don’t like home calcium tests, I think I’m definitely in the minority

To put this in perspective, I dose 6,500 mL of regular kalkwasser daily to my 250 gallon reef and this does not keep up with my calcium and alkalinity demand. Miami reefers chart recommends 62 mL of vinegar the first week for a 250 gallon system.

I doubt that the 62 mL of vinegar kalk (kalk-gar?) is going to make a big difference to the calcium and alk in my system.

Kalk saturated vinegar is about 20x as potent as kalkwasser. So in your example you’d be adding about 20% extra calcium and alkalinity. Might be noticeable? Not sure. I suppose it depends on what else you are dosing and demand. Could add an extra ~1dkH in a week.

 

[Ken S]

You said you are not seeing a calcium or alk rise, but do not say how much alk and calcium you are dosing, or what the actual values are.

In general, if neither alk nor calcium are rising, the first step is to add more since you may just be offsetting the demand.

My system is 240g. Deduct for rock/sand I would think around 180-190g of total water volume. I am dosing 130ml of each Ca + TM Trace, Alk + TM Trace, TM Balling C + DIY Mg. I don't want ALK to rise, just thought it was odd that it and Ca haven't risen since I started dosing the saturated vinegar. As mentioned, accoridng to Hanna checkers, they have actually slightly dropped.

Since I started carbon dosing, Alk has dropped slightly. Before carbon dosing, it was always in the low 10's with a Hanna checker. Now it is averaging mid to high 9's over the past 2 weeks. ATI and Oceamo ICP tests 2 weeks ago both showed it high. ATI at 11 and Oceamo-MS at 11.21, both saying that is "critically high".

Ca has also slightly dropped. Today it is 375, 2 days ago 375, 4 days ago 385, 10 days ago 400. So it is slightly dropping in a similar fashion after starting carbon dosing with kalk saturated vinegar. ICP results 2 weeks ago were ATI 382, Oceamo-MS 392.

 

[rishma]

You said you are not seeing a calcium or alk rise, but do not say how much alk and calcium you are dosing, or what the actual values are.

In general, if neither alk nor calcium are rising, the first step is to add more since you may just be offsetting the demand.

My system is 240g. Deduct for rock/sand I would think around 180-190g of total water volume. I am dosing 130ml of each Ca + TM Trace, Alk + TM Trace, TM Balling C + DIY Mg. I don't want ALK to rise, just thought it was odd that it and Ca haven't risen since I started dosing the saturated vinegar. As mentioned, accoridng to Hanna checkers, they have actually slightly dropped.

Since I started carbon dosing, Alk has dropped slightly. Before carbon dosing, it was always in the low 10's with a Hanna checker. Now it is averaging mid to high 9's over the past 2 weeks. ATI and Oceamo ICP tests 2 weeks ago both showed it high. ATI at 11 and Oceamo-MS at 11.21, both saying that is "critically high".

Ca has also slightly dropped. Today it is 375, 2 days ago 375, 4 days ago 385, 10 days ago 400. So it is slightly dropping in a similar fashion after starting carbon dosing with kalk saturated vinegar. ICP results 2 weeks ago were ATI 382, Oceamo-MS 392.

How much kalk saturated vinegar are you dosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

My system is 240g. Deduct for rock/sand I would think around 180-190g of total water volume. I am dosing 130ml of each Ca + TM Trace, Alk + TM Trace, TM Balling C + DIY Mg. I don't want ALK to rise, just thought it was odd that it and Ca haven't risen since I started dosing the saturated vinegar. As mentioned, accoridng to Hanna checkers, they have actually slightly dropped.

Since I started carbon dosing, Alk has dropped slightly. Before carbon dosing, it was always in the low 10's with a Hanna checker. Now it is averaging mid to high 9's over the past 2 weeks. ATI and Oceamo ICP tests 2 weeks ago both showed it high. ATI at 11 and Oceamo-MS at 11.21, both saying that is "critically high".

Ca has also slightly dropped. Today it is 375, 2 days ago 375, 4 days ago 385, 10 days ago 400. So it is slightly dropping in a similar fashion after starting carbon dosing with kalk saturated vinegar. ICP results 2 weeks ago were ATI 382, Oceamo-MS 392.

Seems like a small change, but if I wanted alk higher, I’d boost all parts of the two part system.

 

[Ken S]

You said you are not seeing a calcium or alk rise, but do not say how much alk and calcium you are dosing, or what the actual values are.

In general, if neither alk nor calcium are rising, the first step is to add more since you may just be offsetting the demand.

My system is 240g. Deduct for rock/sand I would think around 180-190g of total water volume. I am dosing 130ml of each Ca + TM Trace, Alk + TM Trace, TM Balling C + DIY Mg. I don't want ALK to rise, just thought it was odd that it and Ca haven't risen since I started dosing the saturated vinegar. As mentioned, accoridng to Hanna checkers, they have actually slightly dropped.

Since I started carbon dosing, Alk has dropped slightly. Before carbon dosing, it was always in the low 10's with a Hanna checker. Now it is averaging mid to high 9's over the past 2 weeks. ATI and Oceamo ICP tests 2 weeks ago both showed it high. ATI at 11 and Oceamo-MS at 11.21, both saying that is "critically high".

Ca has also slightly dropped. Today it is 375, 2 days ago 375, 4 days ago 385, 10 days ago 400. So it is slightly dropping in a similar fashion after starting carbon dosing with kalk saturated vinegar. ICP results 2 weeks ago were ATI 382, Oceamo-MS 392.

How much kalk saturated vinegar are you dosing?

100ml currently.

 

[Ken S]

My system is 240g. Deduct for rock/sand I would think around 180-190g of total water volume. I am dosing 130ml of each Ca + TM Trace, Alk + TM Trace, TM Balling C + DIY Mg. I don't want ALK to rise, just thought it was odd that it and Ca haven't risen since I started dosing the saturated vinegar. As mentioned, accoridng to Hanna checkers, they have actually slightly dropped.

Since I started carbon dosing, Alk has dropped slightly. Before carbon dosing, it was always in the low 10's with a Hanna checker. Now it is averaging mid to high 9's over the past 2 weeks. ATI and Oceamo ICP tests 2 weeks ago both showed it high. ATI at 11 and Oceamo-MS at 11.21, both saying that is "critically high".

Ca has also slightly dropped. Today it is 375, 2 days ago 375, 4 days ago 385, 10 days ago 400. So it is slightly dropping in a similar fashion after starting carbon dosing with kalk saturated vinegar. ICP results 2 weeks ago were ATI 382, Oceamo-MS 392.

Seems like a small change, but if I wanted alk higher, I’d boost all parts of the two part system.

Yes, but thinking I'm not really wanting to as it's on the high side already. I was just curious why Alk & Ca haven't haven't increased since I started dosing the kalk saturated vinegar. I was kind of expecting both to rise. I read that the vinegar causes ph drop & adding the kalk counteracts the drop. But I was still expecting to see a rise in Alk & Ca even moreso. I just don't understand the chemistry behind all of this is all, I guess. I am adding all that Ca and the measurement goes down slightly?

 

[rishma]

@Randy Holmes-Farley please check I have this right.

To raise a 700 liter tank by 1dkH using kalk saturated vinegar, the dose is 700/2324 =0.3L or 300ml dose. So a 100ml dose is about 0.3 dKH.

I would expect this daily dose (on top of a normal alkalinity dose that keeps tank alkalinity stable) to yield a measurable change in alkalinity over a week’s time.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

. I just don't understand the chemistry behind all of this is all, I guess. I am adding all that Ca and the measurement goes down slightly?

Kalk adds 2.8 dKH of alk for each 20 ppm of calcium. If you added more than was consumed, it shows up much faster in alk than calcium since 1 dKH is easily detected by alk testing, but 7 ppm calcium is lost in the noise of testing,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley please check I have this right.

To raise a 700 liter tank by 1dkH using kalk saturated vinegar, the dose is 700/2324 =0.3L or 300ml dose. So a 100ml dose is about 0.3 dKH.

I would expect this daily dose (on top of a normal alkalinity dose that keeps tank alkalinity stable) to yield a measurable change in alkalinity over a week’s time.

His “saturated” solution is actually very weak. It is not vinegar saturated with calcium hydroxide. He added a little
Vinegar to kalk. One needs to use vinegar as the only fluid.


I made it by adding calcium hydroxide to vinegar until there was considerable solids left over and just let that settle out.

 

[rishma]

@Randy Holmes-Farley please check I have this right.

To raise a 700 liter tank by 1dkH using kalk saturated vinegar, the dose is 700/2324 =0.3L or 300ml dose. So a 100ml dose is about 0.3 dKH.

I would expect this daily dose (on top of a normal alkalinity dose that keeps tank alkalinity stable) to yield a measurable change in alkalinity over a week’s time.

His “saturated” solution is actually very weak. It is not vinegar saturated with calcium hydroxide. He added a little
Vinegar to kalk. One needs to use vinegar as the only fluid.


I made it by adding calcium hydroxide to vinegar until there was considerable solids left over and just let that settle out.

Oh!! I completely missed that. I thought it was straight vinegar with Kalk added until saturation.

 

[Ken S]

@Randy Holmes-Farley please check I have this right.

To raise a 700 liter tank by 1dkH using kalk saturated vinegar, the dose is 700/2324 =0.3L or 300ml dose. So a 100ml dose is about 0.3 dKH.

I would expect this daily dose (on top of a normal alkalinity dose that keeps tank alkalinity stable) to yield a measurable change in alkalinity over a week’s time.

His “saturated” solution is actually very weak. It is not vinegar saturated with calcium hydroxide. He added a little
Vinegar to kalk. One needs to use vinegar as the only fluid.


I made it by adding calcium hydroxide to vinegar until there was considerable solids left over and just let that settle out.

Oh!! I completely missed that. I thought it was straight vinegar with Kalk added until saturation.

Randy you are correct! I used straight vinegar, added kalk until there was considerable particulate that would not dissolve. Then I added back small amounts of vinegar & kept mixing until the particulate dissolved & the solution was clear with nothing settled on the bottom.

If I stated something different previously I apologize, but I don't think I did.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy you are correct! I used straight vinegar, added kalk until there was considerable particulate that would not dissolve. Then I added back small amounts of vinegar & kept mixing until the particulate dissolved & the solution was clear with nothing settled on the bottom.

If I stated something different previously I apologize, but I don't think I did.

Sorry, I read this differently. I see now what you meant.

I had some kalkwasser so I saturated it to a point until it wasn't dissolving fully, then added small amounts of vinegar until there was no more particulate & fully clear.

FYI, kalkwasser is the water solution of dissolved calcium hydroxide. But I know some companies incorrectly label a bottle of solids as kalkwasser.

 

[ScottF]

Did your pH go up at all? I remember Reefdork saying that when he started dosing kalkwasser, the increased growth rate of his stony corals resulted in increase calcium and alk uptake and in the end he had to keep dosing the same amount of two part.