Carbon Dosing with Vinegar - Questions about Nutrient Export

[Belgian Anthias]

For the past month or so I've been working on stabilizing my nutrients. My 9-month-old tank is admittedly quite overstocked, and I also feed quite heavily, so keeping nutrients in check has been a bit of a challenge. Nitrate particularly has been difficult to bring to a more manageable level. I currently sit at 50 ppm and perform weekly 15-20% water changes to keep it there. My Phosphates have been stable for a couple of weeks since introducing PhosGuard at 0.15, which I'm mostly happy with. I also run a refugium, although my Chaeto doesn't grow as well as I had hoped.

So with all of that above, I decided to implement Carbon dosing to reduce/stabilize my nitrates without having to do such heavy water changes. I am not as much concerned with a specific number, but more want to ensure whatever that number is, that it stays relatively stable.

So far I'm dosing 35ml of Vinegar per day spread out across two hours from lights on at 10 am until about 12 pm and increasing it by about 5ml per week and testing daily to track any trends. So far I haven't noticed much change in my Nitrates, although my corals are extremely happy.

While Vinegar is being added to my system, my skimmer level immediately begins to rise and continues until the Vinegar dosing is complete, resulting in an extremely wet (almost clear) skimmate. This leads me to wonder whether or not I should be turning my skimmer off and allowing the bacteria to consume the Vinegar or is this an indication that the Skimmer is picking up that bacteria right away?

I'm curious about this as I want to make sure I'm exporting the bacteria correctly and not adding more Vinegar to the system unnecessarily. Would love to hear from some experienced folks in this area to know if what I'm observing is expected.

Kitchen vinegar, alcohol vinegar of 8° contains 8% acetic acid of which 40% is carbon. This vinegar therefore contains 3.2% carbon

To assimilate one gram of nitrogen, 15.17/0.032 = 474 ml of alcohol vinegar 8° is needed.
To assimilate the nitrogen of one gram of nitrate, 474 x 0.226 = 107 ml of alcohol vinegar 8° is needed

And all other minerals and building materials needed for growth.

Phoshate is removed by chemicals, how the nutrient balance is maintained?

To remove the same amount of ammonia-nitrogen using heterotrophic growth 40 X more growth is needed compared to autotrophs. 40 x more minerals are needed. What happens if the building materials are used up in the environment of corals.? Corals are able to manage the carbon and nutrient availability in their holobiont producing so called mucus. No panic! But how they will keep on doing it if surrounded by free organic carbon?

The use of carbon-hydrates, including vinegar, may kill. ref: CMF De Haes 2016 - 2018

Fast growing heterotrophic bacteria do not use nitrate-nitrogen to grow fast, most very fast growers are not able to use it. Normally heterotrophic bacteria retrieve carbon braking down organic waste this way producing the minerals needed for their own growth and for growth powered by sunlight which will clear the water, restore the C/N balance and the buffering capacity . What happens if bacteria are provided with too much organic carbon for free? And a skimmer is removing the organics constantly leaving inorganic ammonia behind?
A fish releases +-85% of his food as waste but not before braking down most proteins which leads to the release of +85% of the nitrogen present in the food in the form of inorganic ammonia. What happens with the ammonia if the organic waste ends up in the skimmer without being broken down and only available minerals can be used for new growth? How comes Chaeto is not be able to flourish?

You do feed heavily. Good nutrient management starts with what is going in. It is not so the amount which is most important but the composition., the C/N ratio of feed. Using high protein food will lead to a high nitrate production and in the case this is a good thing. The minerals and nutrients needed for Chaeto to grow probably end up in the skimmer, still being part of the organic waste and are bound to chemicals.

You do have a refuge, why not use it en let light energy clear the water for you? Al you have to do is harvest growth. And maybe review the use of the skimmer. Adding carbon-hydrates ? Only if you exactly know what you are doing and what you can and may expect. Clearing the water using growth in combination with a skimmer needs active management of available nutrients. The removal rate of a skimmer is unknown, which makes active growth-management very difficult. In the case NOT using a skimmer is a better option.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To assimilate one gram of nitrogen, 15.17/0.032 = 474 ml of alcohol vinegar 8° is needed.
To assimilate the nitrogen of one gram of nitrate, 474 x 0.226 = 107 ml of alcohol vinegar 8° is needed

I do not believe that is a correct method of calculation. It assumes zero carbon atoms from the vinegar end up as carbon dioxide.

I also do not agree with your other hypotheses as well.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I do not believe that is a correct method of calculation. It assumes zero carbon atoms from the vinegar end up as carbon dioxide.

I also do not agree with your other hypotheses as well.

That is correct. This means in practice a lot more organic carbon is needed. It does not include what is needed for energy production. It reduces the risk for overdosing .

NH+4 + 1.18C6H12O6 + HCO−3 + 2.06O2 → C5H7O2N + 6.06H2O + 3.07CO2

This calculation predicts that for every gram of NH4-N converted to biomass, 8.07 grams of biomass and 9.65 grams of CO2 (2.63 grams of inorganic carbon) are produced and 3.57 grams of alkalinity (0.86 grams of inorganic carbon) are produced. ) and 4.71 grams of dissolved oxygen are consumed. Everything is maintained with the consumption of 15.17 grams of carbohydrates. ref: Ebling EnCo2006

I cannot expect agreement from an advocate and propagator of the use of carbohydrates such as vinegar, vodka, sugar, something I am blatantly against until the current evidence of harm to corals and other organisms cannot be refuted. This is regardless of the many known side effects that remain untreated by the propagists, side effects with major consequences. The lack of a scientifically based method of application and prevention of overdose in particular.

 

[apb03]

What are the known side effects that you are referring to?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is correct. This means in practice a lot more organic carbon is needed. It does not include what is needed for energy production. It reduces the risk for overdosing .

NH+4 + 1.18C6H12O6 + HCO−3 + 2.06O2 → C5H7O2N + 6.06H2O + 3.07CO2

This calculation predicts that for every gram of NH4-N converted to biomass, 8.07 grams of biomass and 9.65 grams of CO2 (2.63 grams of inorganic carbon) are produced and 3.57 grams of alkalinity (0.86 grams of inorganic carbon) are produced. ) and 4.71 grams of dissolved oxygen are consumed. Everything is maintained with the consumption of 15.17 grams of carbohydrates. ref: Ebling EnCo2006

I cannot expect agreement from an advocate and propagator of the use of carbohydrates such as vinegar, vodka, sugar, something I am blatantly against until the current evidence of harm to corals and other organisms cannot be refuted. This is regardless of the many known side effects that remain untreated by the propagists, side effects with major consequences. The lack of a scientifically based method of application and prevention of overdose in particular.

I do agree that it is clear, both experimentally and theoretically, that more organic carbon is needed than any calculation like this can show. That said, I don't see the validity or utility of this this calculation in any context. It makes other potentially incorrect assumptions, such as the organic being the only source of C, and not other sources, such as CO2, bicarbonate, or carbonate.

I will, one again, point out your terminology misunderstanding that seems to call any organic molecule that has C, H and O a carbohydrate. I cannot ignore this issue and let you continually corrupt this forum with incorrect information. Making up your own definitions of words is not helpful to readers.

 

[Miami Reef]

I will, one again, point out your terminology misunderstanding that seems to call any organic molecule that has C, H and O a carbohydrate.

What defines a carbohydrate?

 

[Borat]

What defines a carbohydrate?

Potatos..

 

[nicodim55]

Run your skimmer dry skimmate

 

[nicodim55]

Been using vodka/vinegar/brown sugar for over 2 years now, and no issues

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What defines a carbohydrate?

Definitions vary depending on whether it is being defined for a chemist or for everyone else. It has also varied a bit over the years from the early days when chemical structures were just being understood and yet the term was in use.

Wikipedia has one version, which limits them mostly to chemicals with an elemental ratio of 2:1 H:O

"A carbohydrate...is a biomolecule consisting of carbon (C), hydrogen (H) and oxygen (O) atoms, usually with a hydrogen–oxygen atom ratio of 2:1"

Acetic acid (vinegar; CH3CO2H which gives 2:1 H:O) has that ratio, but is excluded by chemists from being called a carbohydrate. It is actually a fatty acid. Wikipedia explicitly excludes it.

"nor are all chemicals that do conform to this definition automatically classified as carbohydrates (e.g. formaldehyde and acetic acid)."

Ethanol (CH3CH2OH; 6:1 H:O) does not have this ratio, nor does it fit any other definition of a carbohydrate.

Carbohydrate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More chemically oriented definitions read like this, which are jargon-loaded with terms like ketone and not readily interpreted by nonchemists:

24.10: Carbohydrates

All carbohydrates consist of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms and are polyhydroxy aldehydes or ketones or are compounds that can be broken down to form such compounds. Examples of carbohydrates …

chem.libretexts.org

"All carbohydrates consist of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms and are polyhydroxy aldehydes or ketones or are compounds that can be broken down to form such compounds. Examples of carbohydrates include starch, fiber, the sweet-tasting compounds called sugars, and structural materials such as cellulose. The term carbohydrate had its origin in a misinterpretation of the molecular formulas of many of these substances. For example, because its formula is C6H12O6, glucose was once thought to be a “carbon hydrate” with the structure C6·6H2O."

It also clearly excludes ethanol and acetic acid.

 

[Miami Reef]

Definitions vary depending on whether it is being defined for a chemist or for everyone else. It has also varied a bit over the years from the early days when chemical structures were just being understood and yet the term was in use.

Wikipedia has one version, which limits them mostly to chemicals with an elemental ratio of 2:1 H:O

"A carbohydrate...is a biomolecule consisting of carbon (C), hydrogen (H) and oxygen (O) atoms, usually with a hydrogen–oxygen atom ratio of 2:1"

Acetic acid (vinegar; CH3CO2H which gives 2:1 H:O) has that ratio, but is excluded by chemists from being called a carbohydrate. It is actually a fatty acid. Wikipedia explicitly excludes it.

"nor are all chemicals that do conform to this definition automatically classified as carbohydrates (e.g. formaldehyde and acetic acid)."

Ethanol (CH3CH2OH; 6:1 H:O) does not have this ratio, nor does it fit any other definition of a carbohydrate.

Carbohydrate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More chemically oriented definitions read like this, which are jargon-loaded with terms like ketone and not readily interpreted by nonchemists:

24.10: Carbohydrates

All carbohydrates consist of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms and are polyhydroxy aldehydes or ketones or are compounds that can be broken down to form such compounds. Examples of carbohydrates …

chem.libretexts.org

"All carbohydrates consist of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms and are polyhydroxy aldehydes or ketones or are compounds that can be broken down to form such compounds. Examples of carbohydrates include starch, fiber, the sweet-tasting compounds called sugars, and structural materials such as cellulose. The term carbohydrate had its origin in a misinterpretation of the molecular formulas of many of these substances. For example, because its formula is C6H12O6, glucose was once thought to be a “carbon hydrate” with the structure C6·6H2O."

It also clearly excludes ethanol and acetic acid.

Thank you so much.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Happy reefing.

 

[Nano_Man]

Sorry everyone can I ask one question. If your aiming for 1ml per gallon. When starting off at the beginning I take it you slowly increase your dosing overtime till you hit the 1ml per gallon

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry everyone can I ask one question. If your aiming for 1ml per gallon. When starting off at the beginning I take it you slowly increase your dosing overtime till you hit the 1ml per gallon

Yes, although I think excessively slow ramping up may be why people see it take a long time to see results.

 

[biom]

I make my own NoPox and dose once daily to keep mine in check.

DIY NoPo-x

How to make 1 liter

500 mls 5% vinegar

375 mls vodka (80 proof)

125 mls RO/DI

It depends on your nitrate levels....and I simply use the NOPOX instructions as far as dosing:

Measured Level (ppm) -Daily Dose ml/per 25 gal

NO3 above 10 -3ml per 25g

NO3 2.5 to 10 -2ml per 25g

NO3 > 1 to 2.5 -1ml per 25g

Note that NOPOX is carbon dosing and you need to have both nitrates and phosphates for it to work...and a skimmer to remove growing bacteria that multiply from consuming the NOPOX.

Bit of an off topic but why in this DIY recipes there is always RO/DI water added? Vinegar is 95% water , I don't think there is a need to dilute it more even if 80 proof vodka is used.

 

[biom]

That is correct. This means in practice a lot more organic carbon is needed. It does not include what is needed for energy production. It reduces the risk for overdosing .

NH+4 + 1.18C6H12O6 + HCO−3 + 2.06O2 → C5H7O2N + 6.06H2O + 3.07CO2

This calculation predicts that for every gram of NH4-N converted to biomass, 8.07 grams of biomass and 9.65 grams of CO2 (2.63 grams of inorganic carbon) are produced and 3.57 grams of alkalinity (0.86 grams of inorganic carbon) are produced. ) and 4.71 grams of dissolved oxygen are consumed. Everything is maintained with the consumption of 15.17 grams of carbohydrates. ref: Ebling EnCo2006

I cannot expect agreement from an advocate and propagator of the use of carbohydrates such as vinegar, vodka, sugar, something I am blatantly against until the current evidence of harm to corals and other organisms cannot be refuted. This is regardless of the many known side effects that remain untreated by the propagists, side effects with major consequences. The lack of a scientifically based method of application and prevention of overdose in particular.

Personally I am not going to wait for another scientist to take 5 frags of wild corals, put them in 5" acrylic boxes and flush them with 100 ppm glucose and conclude that carbon dosing is very dangerous and different dosage should apply, because it would not change the way I am doing it . I prefer to rely on practice, I have been dosing small amounts of organic carbon for many years with no issues but with all good results.
Putting aside the way you are communicating I totally disagree Randy is advocating for dangerous methods, for sure advice for carbon dosing is not more dangerous than advice on not using a skimmer. Any advice can be potentially dangerous for someone who is not really well informed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bit of an off topic but why in this DIY recipes there is always RO/DI water added? Vinegar is 95% water , I don't think there is a need to dilute it more even if 80 proof vodka is used.

To match the potency seen by NMR, a bit more water is needed than those two provide.

This is my rough DIY that is close to NOPOX:

Mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water

 

[biom]

To match the potency seen by NMR, a bit more water is needed than those two provide.

This is my rough DIY that is close to NOPOX:

Mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water

Ah, ok now I remember that discussion from 2015 You were discouraging me to measure alcohol concentration with hygrometer in the original Nopox lol. Not sure if I shared by then my findings but couple of years after I did measured it appeared to be much more ethanol than 15%.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah, ok now I remember that discussion from 2015 You were discouraging me to measure alcohol concentration with hygrometer in the original Nopox lol. Not sure if I shared by then my findings but couple of years after I did measured it appeared to be much more ethanol than 15%.

OK, I do not know anything more than what was reported by NMR:

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6:1 EtOH:AcOH (ethanol : acetic acid). The AcOH is ~3%.

So you can make your own NOPOX (roughly) by adding 1 part vinegar to 1 part 30% ethanol.

Since both vinegar and vodka vary in strength, I adjusted it for 80 proof vodka (more common in the USA) which means less vodka and added water. Not perfect, hence my added line:

"Mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water"

 

[biom]

Yes, those were Matt's initial calculation with 2.5% AcOH concentration but if higher concentration of AcOH is taken (but still in the margin of error) then you can skip water from the formula.

My calculations from the same thread:

NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar

Sorry guys, I did not consider that other people might be waiting for the outcome. Yes everything went very well. I have lost a couple of frags, but for explainable reasons. In my tank I have always struggled with P04 readings that would be considered too high by most people. My P04 readings...

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