Carbon dosing without a skimmer

[Thub]

Hi guys, I've been looking into carbon dosing as a way to reduce nitrates and phosphates, but I don't plan to run a skimmer, as there's not one that fits well in my tank that's worth using (my opinion) I'm not looking to avoid water changes,just soften their effect by never letting nitrates get high enough. Would 10-20% water changes weekly be appropriate with carbon dosing? Or is a skimmer non-optional with carbon dosing? The method of adding carbon is by no means a decision I've made yet, so if one method is better for this idea, I'd be all ears.

 

[lapin]

You are feeding bacteria that will consume N and P. To remove the N and P from your system you need to remove the bacteria. Normally it is done with a skimmer. It might take bigger or more water changes to get the same effect.

 

[Magellan]

I wouldn’t do it if you aren’t running a skimmer. The skimmer isn’t just removing skimmate, it’s also oxygenating the water. Carbon dosing without a skimmer can suffocate your fish.

 

[Thub]

I wouldn’t do it if you aren’t running a skimmer. The skimmer isn’t just removing skimmate, it’s also oxygenating the water. Carbon dosing without a skimmer can suffocate your fish.

And that's a perfect reason not to do it. Thanks, I'll do some research into other directions.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Hi guys, I've been looking into carbon dosing as a way to reduce nitrates and phosphates, but I don't plan to run a skimmer, as there's not one that fits well in my tank that's worth using (my opinion) I'm not looking to avoid water changes,just soften their effect by never letting nitrates get high enough. Would 10-20% water changes weekly be appropriate with carbon dosing? Or is a skimmer non-optional with carbon dosing? The method of adding carbon is by no means a decision I've made yet, so if one method is better for this idea, I'd be all ears.

From the thread Carbon Dosing

jtvaughn said:
WARNING!! using these methods can bring HUGE DANGERS to your reef if used in large doses because the bacteria feeding on the carbon you introduced to your setup WILL multiply greatly and will need to a protein skimmer to rid the waste left over by them.

@Randy Holmes-Farley said:
FWIW, I'm not sure I'd call the issues a huge danger, but I think the biggest risk of a serious problem is if you let the method drive nitrate too low, potentially allowing other problems such as starving corals or even encouraging dino problems.

I'm not actually certain that skimming is even needed, but I do agree that most people who use this method also skim. The skimming will help maintain O2 (which metabolism of organics reduces) and will likely export some fraction of the bacteria that make their way to the water column. Some other fraction of the bacteria will be eaten by filter feeders. If you did not skim, that "feeding"might be the main sink for many of the bacteria.

Another aspect of organic carbon dosing that doesn't get a lot of discussion is that it can directly feed many reef tank organisms (not just bacteria). Many corals, for example, can easily take up and directly use the acetate in vinegar. Maybe they all can.

FWIW, I'm a fan of vinegar dosing, primarily due to its ability to feed organisms, either directly or indirectly, and secondarily for its ability to keep nutrients, especially nitrate, under control. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/carbon-dosing.370105/post-4562945

 

[Magellan]

And that's a perfect reason not to do it. Thanks, I'll do some research into other directions.

No problem! I also do not run a skimmer. I use Purigen, Phosguard, biomedia, and a bag of carbon as filter media and have no issues at all with nutrient control in my 28g.

 

[P.Ankler]

It will be ok if you can find a way to remove dead bacteria from the tank(Yes, corals can consume a part of this bacterial mud as a food but it is quite negligible amount). Maybe with huge weekly water changes ....This video can be helpfull to find the right path to reduce N/P in your tank:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It will be ok if you can find a way to remove dead bacteria from the tank(Yes, corals can consume a part of this bacterial mud as a food but it is quite negligible amount). Maybe with huge weekly water changes ....This video can be helpfull to find the right path to reduce N/P in your tank:

Some tanks have a lot of filter feeders that might even remove more bacteria than skimming.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Bumping this one back up. It's an interesting conversation and relevant to those of us running nano tanks.

 

[BrootsWaymb]

Hi folks, I saw some of these threads and was mulling over going skimmerless, Im in a sumpless 75 G and I've had a number of issues with salinity bouncing all over due to the amount the skimmer removes. I've tried to skim dry and it doesn't seem to cut it. I carbon dose and WC (4 gallons a week). Rather than remove the skimmer, I've opted to remove my collection cup. (I carbon dose and use a little bit of calcium formate for kalk/alk so gas exchange is critical), Tank is a year old and I'm wondering if maybe using UV in a skimmerless situation might make sense to control bacterial densities? or am I better off letting bacteria sequester nutrients and allowing pods etc to eat it all? My end goal is acro / sps dominance (though I keep easy sps for now).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi folks, I saw some of these threads and was mulling over going skimmerless, Im in a sumpless 75 G and I've had a number of issues with salinity bouncing all over due to the amount the skimmer removes. I've tried to skim dry and it doesn't seem to cut it. I carbon dose and WC (4 gallons a week). Rather than remove the skimmer, I've opted to remove my collection cup. (I carbon dose and use a little bit of calcium formate for kalk/alk so gas exchange is critical), Tank is a year old and I'm wondering if maybe using UV in a skimmerless situation might make sense to control bacterial densities? or am I better off letting bacteria sequester nutrients and allowing pods etc to eat it all? My end goal is acro / sps dominance (though I keep easy sps for now).

I think the question would be what would happen in your system to the dead bacteria, and whether that is different and better or worse than would happen if they were left alive.

IMO, live is probably better, until they are eaten by something.

 

[BrootsWaymb]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Well, I'll run without UV for awhile and report back.

 

[adamg77]

I'm following I'm very interested in the application of carbon dosing for benefiting the corals but not as a primary means of nutrient export. I also am wondering how necessary skimming would be. I understand the premise of it being necessary to remove the excess bacteria - My question would be couldn't you titrate the amount of biopellets (from tropic Marin) to the nutrient levels in your tank by just slowly adding the amount in the reactor till you see a level you are happy with?
@Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

- My question would be couldn't you titrate the amount of biopellets (from tropic Marin) to the nutrient levels in your tank by just slowly adding the amount in the reactor till you see a level you are happy with?
@Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner

Yes, but I personally cannot see picking biopellets for that application. A liquid organic is much easier to adjust up or down to experiment.

 

[adamg77]

Yes, but I personally cannot see picking biopellets for that application. A liquid organic is much easier to adjust up or down to experiment.

So titration slowly to nutrients without skimmer wouldn’t cause a problem? I plan to use tropic Marin all for reef on a doser to take care of depletions and then put a phyto like product on a doser such as phytochrom. I’m wondering how necessary mechanical filtration is in a reef tank full of inverts and a thriving refugium that also utilizes carbon dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So titration slowly to nutrients without skimmer wouldn’t cause a problem? I plan to use tropic Marin all for reef on a doser to take care of depletions and then put a phyto like product on a doser such as phytochrom. I’m wondering how necessary mechanical filtration is in a reef tank full of inverts and a thriving refugium that also utilizes carbon dosing.

Dosing organics without a skimmer won't cause a problem if there is something consuming the bacteria (and sufficient aeration). If not, bacteria will accumulate as globs and such.

Are you referring to a skimmer as mechanical filtration? Not sure what you are getting at, but I wouldn't call it a mechanical filter.

I'm not sure what you are wanting the phyto to accomplish.

 

[adamg77]

Dosing organics without a skimmer won't cause a problem if there is something consuming the bacteria (and sufficient aeration). If not, bacteria will accumulate as globs and such.

Are you referring to a skimmer as mechanical filtration? Not sure what you are getting at, but I wouldn't call it a mechanical filter.

I'm not sure what you are wanting the phyto to accomplish.

Thank you for you’re response
I am not referring to the protein skimmer as mechanical sorry
I’m trying to emulate having a constant supply of good yummy food for my corals and NPS corals which is why I’m planning on doing the phyto

I do plan on using a skimmer but I was just wondering how necessary it was for carbon dosing. I don’t want it to rid my tank of all nutrients as I am trying to set up a fuge and have macro algae in the tank

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for you’re response
I am not referring to the protein skimmer as mechanical sorry
I’m trying to emulate having a constant supply of good yummy food for my corals and NPS corals which is why I’m planning on doing the phyto

I do plan on using a skimmer but I was just wondering how necessary it was for carbon dosing. I don’t want it to rid my tank of all nutrients as I am trying to set up a fuge and have macro algae in the tank

I would not view a skimmer as primarily a nutrient reduction method, but as an aeration and organic material export method. I would not avoid one just to avoid the small effect it may have on nitrate and phosphate.