Chloramine

[ksed]

From my understanding activated carbon in a RO unit does not remove all of the chloramines in the tap water.
Is there any benefit of using a dedicated dechlorinator Eg Prime vs Ascorbic Acid?
Thanks

 

[Screwgunner]

They have charcoal filters for chloramine. Chloramine and chlorine both are hard on ro membrane. Do you use a TDS meter.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From my understanding activated carbon in a RO unit does not remove all of the chloramines in the tap water.
Is there any benefit of using a dedicated dechlorinator Eg Prime vs Ascorbic Acid?
Thanks

That assumption is incorrect in a large number of cases. Maybe most cases. My real world tests done by a bunch of reefers showed that a normal RO/DI adequately removed chloramine. That said, I do discuss chemical removal in the article below for folks who want to use that method (preferably before an RO/DI).

If you have a normal RO/DI, I'd first get a cheap chlorine kit and see if there is any in the effluent before doing anything more complicated or expensive.


Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com

Lessons Learned and Suggestions:

1. Most RO/DI systems seem capable of removing chloramine adequately for aquarists.
2. The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing.
3. Cheap sediment cartridges may expose the carbon cartridge to unnecessary fouling, which may permit chloramine to pass through the system. Cartridges should be replaced as soon as the pressure drops significantly, even if RO/DI water is still being produced at a reasonable rate or purity as measured by total dissolved solids.
4. Testing for chlorine and chloramine is easy, so any concern is easily reconciled.
5. One Hach kit provides several dozen test results. Our local Boston Club bought some kits and had a "water testing day." The kits can also become part of the "library" of a local club for aquarists to use once in a while to see if their systems are functioning. That way, the cost to each aquarist is minimal.

 

[Malcontent]

I had chloramine issues many years ago. At the time I just happened to have a Hach DR/890 (basically the modern DR/900 without USB) so I was able to measure levels the human eye had trouble discerning (down to the method limit of 0.02 mg/L). The levels of chlorine toxic to fish are quite low and I doubt most test strips are sensitive enough. There are ultra low range test strips made for dialysis use but the Hanna is probably the most affordable ultra low range tester (Hach colorimeters chlorine start at $300).

A single 10" activated carbon didn't last too long so I quickly added a second.

I later added a second membrane and a booster pump which increased flow rate. I had to add three more 10" activated carbon stages. I periodically sampled water after the 4th stage and retired the first carbon block if there was any breakthrough, move #2-4 up one position and put a new block in position 5.

I've attached one of several papers on chloramine removal for dialysis. It recommends the use of activated carbon and a 5 minute contact time. It also discusses the use of ascorbic acid. Note that levels of chloramine tolerable by humans in this setting is higher than what fish should be subject to.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I had chloramine issues many years ago. At the time I just happened to have a Hach DR/890 (basically the modern DR/900 without USB) so I was able to measure levels the human eye had trouble discerning (down to the method limit of 0.02 mg/L). The levels of chlorine toxic to fish are quite low and I doubt most test strips are sensitive enough. There are ultra low range test strips made for dialysis use but the Hanna is probably the most affordable ultra low range tester (Hach colorimeters chlorine start at $300).

A single 10" activated carbon didn't last too long so I quickly added a second.

I later added a second membrane and a booster pump which increased flow rate. I had to add three more 10" activated carbon stages. I periodically sampled water after the 4th stage and retired the first carbon block if there was any breakthrough, move #2-4 up one position and put a new block in position 5.

I've attached one of several papers on chloramine removal for dialysis. It recommends the use of activated carbon and a 5 minute contact time. It also discusses the use of ascorbic acid. Note that levels of chloramine tolerable by humans in this setting is higher than what fish should be subject to.

But to be fair, no one is doing 100% water changes, so if you top off 1% daily, you are talking about adding 100x less.

IMO, such sophisticated tests are not needed.

 

[Dolphins18]

That assumption is incorrect in a large number of cases. Maybe most cases. My real world tests done by a bunch of reefers showed that a normal RO/DI adequately removed chlormainee.

If you have a normal RO/DI, I'd first get a cheap chlorine kit and see if there is any in the effluent before doing anything more complicated or expensive.


Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com

Lessons Learned and Suggestions:

1. Most RO/DI systems seem capable of removing chloramine adequately for aquarists.
2. The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing.
3. Cheap sediment cartridges may expose the carbon cartridge to unnecessary fouling, which may permit chloramine to pass through the system. Cartridges should be replaced as soon as the pressure drops significantly, even if RO/DI water is still being produced at a reasonable rate or purity as measured by total dissolved solids.
4. Testing for chlorine and chloramine is easy, so any concern is easily reconciled.
5. One Hach kit provides several dozen test results. Our local Boston Club bought some kits and had a "water testing day." The kits can also become part of the "library" of a local club for aquarists to use once in a while to see if their systems are functioning. That way, the cost to each aquarist is minimal.

Chloramine would register as a total dissolved solid wouldn't it? I imagine that 0 TDS water does not contain Chloramine.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Chloramine would register as a total dissolved solid wouldn't it? I imagine that 0 TDS water does not contain Chloramine.

That's a complicated question but most forms of chloramine will not register on a conductivity meter as they are uncharged at the pH likely attained.

 

[Little c big D]

There are simple test kits for chloramines. As well as free chlorine. I want to say in most places you will be running free chlorine 4 months out of the year, split throughout the year Most cities put out notices when they turn the ammonia off. That's always been helpful for me to keep up with that. Testing for one while the system is on the other can give false negatives however so be sure you know what you're testing for.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are simple test kits for chloramines. As well as free chlorine. I want to say in most places you will be running free chlorine 4 months out of the year, split throughout the year Most cities put out notices when they turn the ammonia off. That's always been helpful for me to keep up with that. Testing for one while the system is on the other can give false negatives however so be sure you know what you're testing for.

I don't agree. Chlormamine shows up fine on a total chlorine test (why do you believe that is not true???), and it is what I recommend folks test their effluent for if concerned.

Chloramine kits are generally more expensive, and not needed unless you actually want to prove it is chloramine.

The directions for the Hach total chlorine kit make that clear:

https://www.hach.com/asset-get.download-en.jsa?code=55581

Chlorine can be present in water as free chlorine and as combined chlorine. Both forms
can exist in the same water and be determined together as total chlorine. Free chlorine is
present as hypochlorous acid and/or hypochlorite ion. Combined chlorine exists as
monochloramine, dichloramine, nitrogen trichloride and other chloro derivatives. The
combined chlorine oxidizes iodide in the reagent to iodine. The iodine and free chlorine
react with DPD (N,N-diethyl-p-phenylenediamine) to form a pink color which is
proportional to the total chlorine concentration.
To find the concentration of combined chlorine, run a free chlorine test and a total
chlorine test. Subtract the results of the free chlorine test from the total chlorine test to
obtain the combined chlorine concentration. The measurement wavelength is 530 nm for
spectrophotometers or 520 nm for colorimeters.

 

[Little c big D]

I don't agree. Chlormamine shows up fine on a total chlorine test (why do you believe that is not true???), and it is what I recommend folks test their effluent for if concerned.

Chloramine kits are generally more expensive, and not needed unless you actually want to prove it is chloramine.

The directions for the Hach total chlorine kit make that clear:

https://www.hach.com/asset-get.download-en.jsa?code=55581

Chlorine can be present in water as free chlorine and as combined chlorine. Both forms
can exist in the same water and be determined together as total chlorine. Free chlorine is
present as hypochlorous acid and/or hypochlorite ion. Combined chlorine exists as
monochloramine, dichloramine, nitrogen trichloride and other chloro derivatives. The
combined chlorine oxidizes iodide in the reagent to iodine. The iodine and free chlorine
react with DPD (N,N-diethyl-p-phenylenediamine) to form a pink color which is
proportional to the total chlorine concentration.
To find the concentration of combined chlorine, run a free chlorine test and a total
chlorine test. Subtract the results of the free chlorine test from the total chlorine test to
obtain the combined chlorine concentration. The measurement wavelength is 530 nm for
spectrophotometers or 520 nm for

I think it's helpful to understand the process, I'm also seeing the chlorine situation from a different perspective I suppose. I deal with water disinfection directly. So we have ways and means of testing and neutralizing that aren't exactly on the scale of what we do here. So I apologize for the over stepping.

 

[ksed]

That assumption is incorrect in a large number of cases. Maybe most cases. My real world tests done by a bunch of reefers showed that a normal RO/DI adequately removed chloramine. That said, I do discuss chemical removal in the article below for folks who want to use that method (preferably before an RO/DI).

If you have a normal RO/DI, I'd first get a cheap chlorine kit and see if there is any in the effluent before doing anything more complicated or expensive.


Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com

Lessons Learned and Suggestions:

1. Most RO/DI systems seem capable of removing chloramine adequately for aquarists.
2. The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing.
3. Cheap sediment cartridges may expose the carbon cartridge to unnecessary fouling, which may permit chloramine to pass through the system. Cartridges should be replaced as soon as the pressure drops significantly, even if RO/DI water is still being produced at a reasonable rate or purity as measured by total dissolved solids.
4. Testing for chlorine and chloramine is easy, so any concern is easily reconciled.
5. One Hach kit provides several dozen test results. Our local Boston Club bought some kits and had a "water testing day." The kits can also become part of the "library" of a local club for aquarists to use once in a while to see if their systems are functioning. That way, the cost to each aquarist is minimal.

I was looking at these but reviews aren’t that good.

Insta-Test Free & Total Chlorine & Chloramine Strips (Fresh Water)

Why does BRS recommend this? The easiest way to know if your city uses chlorine or chloramines is by using the LaMotte Test Strips for Free and Total Chlorine. Water Treatment facilities can change their treatment process without notice and usually change the amounts of disinfectants used...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

The other option would be the Hanna Checker

Total Chlorine Ultra Low Range Colorimeter HI761 Hanna Checker - Fresh Water

Four simple steps to results. Easily and accurately test for ultra-low range total chlorine in with the Hanna Checker Colorimeter - Total Chlorine Ultra-Low Range (HI 761). Designed to be more a more accurate alternative to chemical test kits. First, add sample to the included cuvette. Next...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Randy on a separate note for freshwater aquarium. Is there any benefit of using a dechlorinator vs ascorbic acid?
Thanks

 

[howaboutme]

You (everyone really) should be looking for 0.5 micron instead of the cheap stuff (1 or even 5 micron) that we typically see from BRS, etc. Likely wouldn't need extra stages if you start w/ the 0.5 micron carbon block.

 

[Dan_P]

But to be fair, no one is doing 100% water changes, so if you top off 1% daily, you are talking about adding 100x less.

IMO, such sophisticated tests are not needed.

How many aquaria suffer from chloramine poisoning?

Ever measure the life time of chlorine or chloramine in a sample of aquarium water?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How many aquaria suffer from chloramine poisoning?

Ever measure the life time of chlorine or chloramine in a sample of aquarium water?

I do not know the answer as to how many or the half life in a reef tank.

I've not personally ever heard of a tank that had an RO/DI at 0 ppm TDS that had demonstrable problems in the aquarium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was looking at these but reviews aren’t that good.

Insta-Test Free & Total Chlorine & Chloramine Strips (Fresh Water)

Why does BRS recommend this? The easiest way to know if your city uses chlorine or chloramines is by using the LaMotte Test Strips for Free and Total Chlorine. Water Treatment facilities can change their treatment process without notice and usually change the amounts of disinfectants used...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

The other option would be the Hanna Checker

Total Chlorine Ultra Low Range Colorimeter HI761 Hanna Checker - Fresh Water

Four simple steps to results. Easily and accurately test for ultra-low range total chlorine in with the Hanna Checker Colorimeter - Total Chlorine Ultra-Low Range (HI 761). Designed to be more a more accurate alternative to chemical test kits. First, add sample to the included cuvette. Next...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Randy on a separate note for freshwater aquarium. Is there any benefit of using a dechlorinator vs ascorbic acid?
Thanks

I've not heard of many reef folks using ascorbic acid to dechlorinate their water. Offhand, I do not know the advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Dan_P]

I've not heard of many reef folks using ascorbic acid to dechlorinate their water. Offhand, I do not know the advantages and disadvantages.

Maybe the possibility of excess vitamin C seems better to have than excess thiosulfate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe the possibility of excess vitamin C seems better to have than excess thiosulfate.

Maybe. I don't know either way.

 

[Dan_P]

I do not know the answer as to how many or the half life in a reef tank.

I've not personally ever heard of a tank that had an RO/DI at 0 ppm TDS that had demonstrable problems in the aquarium.

OK. If the signal to noise is so low on actual problems with chloramine, I feel more confident about the notion that this topic is a non-issue.

 

[ksed]

Using Vitamin C to Neutralize Chlorine in Water Systems

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Using Vitamin C to Neutralize Chlorine in Water Systems

Thanks!

I couldn't quickly find what the reaction products are with chloramine, but just keep in mind that ammonia may be a product.