CITES captive breeding program

[Karen00]

Hello fellow saltines,

Are there any CITES experts in the community? I happened to be on the website of a local saltwater/freshwater community and happened to see someone selling an Arowana. I have no interest in this fish but was curious as to who keeps them because I know they get large. I clicked into the post to see if there were pics and noticed the seller made a point of saying the fish comes with all documentation certifying it is from a CITES captive breeding facility. Firstly, I had no idea this fish was endangered but equally as important I didn't know breeders can get registered by CITES which allows them to sell CITES listed flora and fauna. The breeder is authenticated as having their stock as captive bred even if the originals were/are wild. There are a bunch of CITES pages about the program but the main one is here: https://cites.org/eng/prog/captive-breeding

Does anyone have more knowledge of this? I'm not thinking for myself because the fish I breed aren't CITES listed but what I'm curious about is whether there are limitations or pitfalls to the program. As an example, my whole life I wanted a dwarf seahorse tank and that was my main motivation to get into saltwater and how I came to join R2R. Apparently I started my endeavour about twelve years too late because now they are CITES listed. I'm in Canada and all online references to people breeding them abruptly stop about twelve years ago. I'm so disappointed. Having said that I have seen people in the US doing captive breeding of these wee little guys so I'm curious as to why people don't get registered so they can freely sell, cross border and all, their CITES stock (no matter what the stock is)? Is it expensive, are there too many restrictions, something else? This seems like the perfect solution.

Hint: I want a dwarf seahorse breeder to get registered. If someone knows of a breeder already registered let me know.

Thanks for all input and knowledge about this!

 

[fish farmer]

I know in the states certain things even with documentation wouldn't be allowed.....like Asian Arowana, even if they are microchipped with paperwork.

Depending on state rules, you would more than likely have to be more than a hobbyist, probably working at a University or a public aquarium/zoo doing research. I know when it comes to endangered fishes in the states, there was a lot more paperwork involved and limitations on what you could do with endangered fishes, even ones that were cultured.

Each state may have their own pet rules as well. Where I live I can't get poison dart frogs without a $100 permit. I know where I can get captive bred ones, but I would still have to apply for a permit and probably then have the local authorities inspect where I would be keeping them. My local public aquarium has them and more than likely have the proper permits and credibility to house said animals.

 

[Karen00]

I know in the states certain things even with documentation wouldn't be allowed.....like Asian Arowana, even if they are microchipped with paperwork.

Depending on state rules, you would more than likely have to be more than a hobbyist, probably working at a University or a public aquarium/zoo doing research. I know when it comes to endangered fishes in the states, there was a lot more paperwork involved and limitations on what you could do with endangered fishes, even ones that were cultured.

Each state may have their own pet rules as well. Where I live I can't get poison dart frogs without a $100 permit. I know where I can get captive bred ones, but I would still have to apply for a permit and probably then have the local authorities inspect where I would be keeping them. My local public aquarium has them and more than likely have the proper permits and credibility to house said animals.

Thanks for this. I absolutely understand why some species might need additional permits (if they're poisonous, etc.) and of course I'm not including invasive species (I don't even think CITES deals with invasiveness other than if the stock is endangered). So keeping with the Arowana example, I saw that about the US and the Arowana still being illegal even if captive bred so why is that? Is it because of invasiveness or something else? If it's only because they are endangered then I guess the CITES program doesn't offer too much benefit for breeders which is a shame given people are working hard to make sustainable buying options for people whether it's flora or fauna.

 

[fish farmer]

Thanks for this. I absolutely understand why some species might need additional permits (if they're poisonous, etc.) and of course I'm not including invasive species (I don't even think CITES deals with invasiveness other than if the stock is endangered). So keeping with the Arowana example, I saw that about the US and the Arowana still being illegal even if captive bred so why is that? Is it because of invasiveness or something else? If it's only because they are endangered then I guess the CITES program doesn't offer too much benefit for breeders which is a shame given people are working hard to make sustainable buying options for people whether it's flora or fauna.

So here's my opinion. So you breed something that is endangered, permitted, farmed, disease free and offer it up on the marketplace. Good right? Except that it is still endangered in the wild where say the enforcement is lax.....the illegal market could still exist. Documentation could be forged, etc. So it is easier for law enforcement to say no to all.

 

[Karen00]

So here's my opinion. So you breed something that is endangered, permitted, farmed, disease free and offer it up on the marketplace. Good right? Except that it is still endangered in the wild where say the enforcement is lax.....the illegal market could still exist. Documentation could be forged, etc. So it is easier for law enforcement to say no to all.

Good point but I would hope they have a way (or will evolve a way) to weed out the good sellers/breeders from the bad. After all isn't the premise that if you make an accessible, legal, sustainable market then people won't need to turn to the illegal sellers/breeders?

Hopefully this becomes something. It would be nice to one day have my dream seahorse tank.

 

[Nick Steele]

Thanks for this. I absolutely understand why some species might need additional permits (if they're poisonous, etc.) and of course I'm not including invasive species (I don't even think CITES deals with invasiveness other than if the stock is endangered). So keeping with the Arowana example, I saw that about the US and the Arowana still being illegal even if captive bred so why is that? Is it because of invasiveness or something else? If it's only because they are endangered then I guess the CITES program doesn't offer too much benefit for breeders which is a shame given people are working hard to make sustainable buying options for people whether it's flora or fauna.

It has a lot to do with the state’s individual ecosystems at play. I’m in Florida and Asian arrowana are illegal but you can still get silver arrowana everywhere. If someone bought one for a small tank and then it got too big and they release it it will wreck havoc to the other fish in the area. I actually know someone who caught a “wild” probably released from someone’s tank arrowana in sunrise Florida. We are known for many invasive species but dang it wrecks our bass fishing. Snakeheads are another species that has invaded south Florida and there are actual studies as to how they effect the fisheries.

In my freshwater days I’ve always dreamed of a huge 500+g tank with bichir peacock bass and freshwater stingrays. The rays required a permit to acquire and it turned me away from the idea. But it’s a positive for me cause now I want a 300+g reef tank haha

 

[fish farmer]

Good point but I would hope they have a way (or will evolve a way) to weed out the good sellers/breeders from the bad. After all isn't the premise that if you make an accessible, legal, sustainable market then people won't need to turn to the illegal sellers/breeders?

Hopefully this becomes something. It would be nice to one day have my dream seahorse tank.

Interesting that you used the word "weed", much like the legal cannabis market, some places where it was highly taxed/regulated the illegal trade increased, but where it was easy to access it didn't...except for neighboring states where illegal sales increased.

It has a lot to do with the state’s individual ecosystems at play. I’m in Florida and Asian arrowana are illegal but you can still get silver arrowana everywhere. If someone bought one for a small tank and then it got too big and they release it it will wreck havoc to the other fish in the area. I actually know someone who caught a “wild” probably released from someone’s tank arrowana in sunrise Florida. We are known for many invasive species but dang it wrecks our bass fishing. Snakeheads are another species that has invaded south Florida and there are actual studies as to how they effect the fisheries.

In my freshwater days I’ve always dreamed of a huge 500+g tank with bichir peacock bass and freshwater stingrays. The rays required a permit to acquire and it turned me away from the idea. But it’s a positive for me cause now I want a 300+g reef tank haha

In Vermont I can't import things like mosquito fish or Florida flag fish (the latter I've seen for sale in New Hampshire), but I can import freshwater stingrays if I want.

 

[Karen00]

It has a lot to do with the state’s individual ecosystems at play. I’m in Florida and Asian arrowana are illegal but you can still get silver arrowana everywhere. If someone bought one for a small tank and then it got too big and they release it it will wreck havoc to the other fish in the area. I actually know someone who caught a “wild” probably released from someone’s tank arrowana in sunrise Florida. We are known for many invasive species but dang it wrecks our bass fishing. Snakeheads are another species that has invaded south Florida and there are actual studies as to how they effect the fisheries.

In my freshwater days I’ve always dreamed of a huge 500+g tank with bichir peacock bass and freshwater stingrays. The rays required a permit to acquire and it turned me away from the idea. But it’s a positive for me cause now I want a 300+g reef tank haha

300+ gallons... Wow go big or go home!! Haha. I absolutely agree on making species illegal to import that are invasive or have the potential to become invasive. It's inexcusable for people to dump their unwanted livestock into our waterways or into any space where they shouldn't be (snakes are a good example)!! It's bad enough the nasty creatures that come in from the ballast of ships or other modes of transportation!! Having said that I can positively say dwarf seahorses would never become invasive where I am! No saltwater and the freshwater bodies of water are too cold. Haha.