Clarity on Tropic Marin Part C

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you very much, Mr. Holmes-Farley. Now I just need to figure out what to do with it...

Maybe I’ll start the balling method after I run out of C-Balance. It just seems a little complex.

That's a fine plan.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Thank you very much, Mr. Holmes-Farley. Now I just need to figure out what to do with it...

Maybe I’ll start the balling method after I run out of C-Balance. It just seems a little complex.

I would be happy to walk you through the simplicity of the Balling Method, when you are ady to try it. It would be easiest if you could give me a call in the office, at your convenience. I can go through it with you relatively quickly and it will be very understandable. Our office is on East Coast time at 413-367-0101

 

[Adamantium]

I would be happy to walk you through the simplicity of the Balling Method, when you are ady to try it. It would be easiest if you could give me a call in the office, at your convenience. I can go through it with you relatively quickly and it will be very understandable. Our office is on East Coast time at 413-367-0101

Thank you for being so generous with your time, Mr. Ekus. I may give you a call later today when I have some time, and take notes for the future. I sincerely appreciate it.

 

[Drewbacca]

Sorry that I am only seeing this now.

Water changes will correct only a portion of the ionic imbalance created by the parts A and B. For instance, if you do a 15% water change, every 2 weeks, you will correct 15% of the imbalance on that day, every two weeks. This is not enough of a correction in my opinion.

The Balling Part C corrects all of that imbalance on a daily basis.

As far as what would be needed to be added to the Tropic Marin Balling Part C to make complete sea salt? You would have to add the appropriate amount of NaCl, along with the proper amounts of calcium and carbonates. None of those are in the Part C. Part C does contain Mg and all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water.

I would love to WHEN is best dose it? I've got plenty of dosers.. just not much time inbetween that I'm not dosing Carbonate or Calcium. It has Mag so def not during or close to calcium right? And 2... Randy's description of BRS 2part Maintanance Mag mix sounds alot like your description of what the Mag in Balling Part C is doing.. is it really recommended to dose both? AND..IF SO..can I dose together. Randy said to dose 600ml every gal of calcium so I did the math to split up daily. (I know C dose is based off Alk consumption & doubled if using Soda ash, which I am) THANK YOU..GREATLY APPRECIATED!

 

[Drewbacca]

I’m aware of exactly what they are, yes. It’s both simple to figure out from the claims, and Hans Werner (the inventor) has explained it here at least once, maybe several times, as has Lou. Both were typically in the context of trying to show how it is different from a two part.

On that last part, the only functional difference between a perfect implementation of a two part and a perfect implement of Balling is that, while both must raise salinity, the two part must do so to a greater extent. That’s the price you pay for putting the components into 2 parts instead of three.

Sorry, I'm ignorant on alot of the chemistry.. but when you say 2 instead of 3.. what is the 3rd thing that would not raise salinty ad much? Thanks!

 

[JCSaltwaterFishandCoral]

yep, I saw the video, it's what made me start considering this, and it's why I found a thread where Lou contributed so I could get a direct answer about these. It's not clear to me if these additives combined make an ESV-style salt mix or if it's a skewed mix that maybe contains extra Ca, CO3, Mg, Sr, K, etc since we expect corals are taking up more of those than Na, Cl. The video does say the Balling reagents are intended to keep things in balance, but I'm not sure what that means...'balance' can mean a few different things.
I'm hoping to get a direct answer from someone who has specific knowledge of the composition of these specific additives.

When I read this the first thing that came to my mind was location of the research or body of water? Just how my brain is wired I guess. Never the less it makes sense, your answer being proprietary.

my guess is they have formulated it to make up for the nutrients loss from increased NaCl added from using A B. So this means there is Magnesium in balance to the amount of A and B creates a lost of Mag and Trace. Are there other options other than K and P trace? This makes so much sense when using AB. Im wondering of CarboCal has same salinity effect, but from what I remember from his videos, it does not mess with the Salinity and provides DkH via other chemical processes.

 

[JCSaltwaterFishandCoral]

Given all the information in this thread so far, it seems clear that Balling Part C is not a meaningful way to supplement trace element depletion in a reef tank. While it may theoretically add a very small amount of trace elements, it doesn't seem intended to be a trace element supplement. It seems to be more tailored to achieve better balance with the spare NaCl left over from two part dosing.

There are several BRS videos that reference using Balling Part C as a trace supplement method, so that may be fueling some of the disinformation out there about this product. While BRS are not the absolute authority, many of us common-folk do view their content as highly reliable. Maybe BRS would be willing to edit their videos which imply that Balling part C can be used as a solution for trace element supplementation. For example this video about trace element supplementation where at 25:00 min mark they are describing the dosing for BallingPartC as a viable trace element supplementation strategy: . There are 2 other videos which imply similar things.

Thank you guys for all this information. I may still continue to use TMballingPartC, but I won't be doing so in order to fully supplement trace element depletion in my tank. I'll be researching other methods of trace element supplementation in addition to the balling part C, or just switching back to a trace element supplement alone.

Can't just be Trace supplement because of the Magnesium in mix. You would create magnesium spike if you were to use Part C as pure trace supplement. You would use this first then make your mag adjustments after Part C is added. Removing SW to bring salinity back to normal numbers just lowers every number across the board so no dip in values. So adding water just lowers it back to whatever Salinity you want it. So if you were to dose Magnesium seperate and then find purely trace it would be the same thing as Part c but controlled trace dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would love to WHEN is best dose it? I've got plenty of dosers.. just not much time inbetween that I'm not dosing Carbonate or Calcium. It has Mag so def not during or close to calcium right? And 2... Randy's description of BRS 2part Maintanance Mag mix sounds alot like your description of what the Mag in Balling Part C is doing.. is it really recommended to dose both? AND..IF SO..can I dose together. Randy said to dose 600ml every gal of calcium so I did the math to split up daily. (I know C dose is based off Alk consumption & doubled if using Soda ash, which I am) THANK YOU..GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Magnesium and sulfate are the two main ingredients in both my DIY part 3 and Balling Part C. They serve similar purposes and s do not use both. . The Balling Part C has other ingredients my DIY does not.

As long as the other parts are mixed in, you can add the magnesium part or the Part C.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry, I'm ignorant on alot of the chemistry.. but when you say 2 instead of 3.. what is the 3rd thing that would not raise salinty ad much? Thanks!

i don't understand the question.

My point was that a true two part (like ESV B-ionic) may raise salinity a tiny bit more than a three part (such as Balling).

It's not a big deal.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can't just be Trace supplement because of the Magnesium in mix. You would create magnesium spike if you were to use Part C as pure trace supplement. You would use this first then make your mag adjustments after Part C is added. Removing SW to bring salinity back to normal numbers just lowers every number across the board so no dip in values. So adding water just lowers it back to whatever Salinity you want it. So if you were to dose Magnesium seperate and then find purely trace it would be the same thing as Part c but controlled trace dosing.

My DIY magnesium additive is a fine way to raise magnesium if you actually measure that you need to do so, regardless of whether you are using MY DIY other parts, or full Balling.

The Balling Part C will raise magnesium, but will also raise other things such as potassium.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I would love to WHEN is best dose it? I've got plenty of dosers.. just not much time inbetween that I'm not dosing Carbonate or Calcium. It has Mag so def not during or close to calcium right? And 2... Randy's description of BRS 2part Maintanance Mag mix sounds alot like your description of what the Mag in Balling Part C is doing.. is it really recommended to dose both? AND..IF SO..can I dose together. Randy said to dose 600ml every gal of calcium so I did the math to split up daily. (I know C dose is based off Alk consumption & doubled if using Soda ash, which I am) THANK YOU..GREATLY APPRECIATED!

You can add the Tropic Marin Balling Part C at any time you would like. It will not conflict with the Parts A and B unless you have them going into the same exact "tube" at exactly the same time. If your dosing pumps just add the solutions to your tank water, then you can just have the Part C go into the tank whenever you like.

 

[Lou Ekus]

my guess is they have formulated it to make up for the nutrients loss from increased NaCl added from using A B. So this means there is Magnesium in balance to the amount of A and B creates a lost of Mag and Trace. Are there other options other than K and P trace? This makes so much sense when using AB. Im wondering of CarboCal has same salinity effect, but from what I remember from his videos, it does not mess with the Salinity and provides DkH via other chemical processes.

The Carbocalcium does not have any effect on the salinity like the Balling Method or the Two Part Methods do. THis is because there is no NaCl produced as a byproduct from the Carbocalcium.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Can't just be Trace supplement because of the Magnesium in mix. You would create magnesium spike if you were to use Part C as pure trace supplement. You would use this first then make your mag adjustments after Part C is added. Removing SW to bring salinity back to normal numbers just lowers every number across the board so no dip in values. So adding water just lowers it back to whatever Salinity you want it. So if you were to dose Magnesium seperate and then find purely trace it would be the same thing as Part c but controlled trace dosing.

This is an point that is very often misunderstood. Let me make a distinction between "adding" and "supplementing" when we are talking about trace elements.

While it is true that the Balling Part C is "adding" both Mg and ALL 70 trace elements found in natural sea water, it is only "adding" the amount needed to ionically balance the excess NaCl that was produced with the amount of Parts A and B that you have added. This is technically "adding" those components, but it is not "supplementing" for used Mg or trace elements. In fact, when "supplementing" for used trace elements, it would be better to target the traces being used, not ALL 70. That is why we recommend using a separate trace element supplement.

So to say it a different way, the Balling Method does technically "add" Mg and trace elements with the Part C. However it does not "supplement" for any Mg or trace elements. AND, in fact, the Balling Part C does NOT make the best Mg or trace element "supplement" solution. You are much better served by using specifically trace element supplements and Mg supplements.

I hope this helps clear up this confusion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is an point that is very often misunderstood. Let me make a distinction between "adding" and "supplementing" when as are talking about trace elements.

I try to explain this constantly (for both a two part like ESV-B-ionic, and Balling), but folks have a hard time understanding this point. If it has trace elements, it must be supplementing them right? lol

It surprises folks when I point out that the method may even reduce trace elements (if elevated above NSW levels), even though they are present in an "additive". Few folks think about the salinity correction.

 

[Drewbacca]

My DIY magnesium additive is a fine way to raise magnesium if you actually measure that you need to do so, regardless of whether you are using MY DIY other parts, or full Balling.

The Balling Part C will raise magnesium, but will also raise other things such as potassium.

First. ..I think I heard it mentioned that part C does not have potassium as it is utilized enough to not be considered trace by TM. (So I guess I'll have to dose that as well. ?.) Second... Big Thanks for all your time and help. You dont know how much it helps all of us. Esp myself, who isnt (anymore) trying to find the cheapest way but trying to just set things up the best way possible for continued success...(1/4 of my sandbed is now solid immovsble rock now from doing my own "figuring" previously) SO..now still being ignorant to the full chemistry and trying not to miss anything impactful, ...being able to have access to experienced pros like Yourself & Lou who we know we can trust allows us to go forward with more confidence. So thank you for your time and patience. ...as I know both of you have probably said the same things on 100 topics 100 times 100 different ways & still give your time to help the next person who asks just the same.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

First. ..I think I heard it mentioned that part C does not have potassium as it is utilized enough to not be considered trace by TM.

That is not correct. Potassium is in it, and is one of the primary ingredients in it by weight.

Potassium is certainly not a trace element. Part C has lots of ions that are not trace elements. Those major and minor ions are actually its most useful ingredients (IMO): magnesium, sulfate, potassium, bromide, etc.

 

[Lou Ekus]

First. ..I think I heard it mentioned that part C does not have potassium as it is utilized enough to not be considered trace by TM. (So I guess I'll have to dose that as well. ?.) Second... Big Thanks for all your time and help. You dont know how much it helps all of us. Esp myself, who isnt (anymore) trying to find the cheapest way but trying to just set things up the best way possible for continued success...(1/4 of my sandbed is now solid immovsble rock now from doing my own "figuring" previously) SO..now still being ignorant to the full chemistry and trying not to miss anything impactful, ...being able to have access to experienced pros like Yourself & Lou who we know we can trust allows us to go forward with more confidence. So thank you for your time and patience. ...as I know both of you have probably said the same things on 100 topics 100 times 100 different ways & still give your time to help the next person who asks just the same.

I think the important thing to remember, when thinking about the Balling Part C, is that (and you are right, I have said this at least 100 times. But it seems a difficult concept for people to get their heads around.) The Balling Part C "contains" many major, minor and trace elements, and you are technically "adding" them to the tank when using the Part C. But it does NOT do ANYTHING to "supplement" your system for used compounds or compounds taken up by your animals in the tank. Once again, this distinction between "added" and "supplemented" is key to understanding this. In my terminology "added" would mean "being put in the tank". And "supplemented" would mean making an addition that is large enough to compensate for lost or used amounts.

I hope this helps clear up the question.

 

[Drewbacca]

Thank you. I definetly understand its purpose .. (since having listened to your very informative talk on reef dudes) I just meant.. adding..in the most literal sense of the verb..so I should say.. it feels strange ..Pouring.. anything in such a large amount at once to my tank that's not SW. Not saying its a justified feeling.. just knowing my own ignorance and that if I misunderstand and add that much of something incorrectly.. I cant stick a jug in and take out what I just poured in.

 

[Drewbacca]

That is not correct. Potassium is in it, and is one of the primary ingredients in it by weight.

Potassium is certainly not a trace element. Part C has lots of ions that are not trace elements. Those major and minor ions are actually its most useful ingredients (IMO): magnesium, sulfate, potassium, bromide, etc.

Omg.. so sorry. I MEANT... TM Trace A&K in the balling method has no Potassium, (for reason stated b4)so is not supplemented in the balling method as is. (Since part C is not supplementing.

 

[Drewbacca]

i do not need an explanation of your product. I perfectly well understand it and do not disagree with your comment about what part C is. It is simple chemistry. It is insulting for you to claim I do not understand it.

The BRS magnesium part of the three part is ALSO not a magnesium supplement. I very clearly state what it should and should not be used for. It is mostly designed to offset the NaCl rise so that resetting the salinity does not deplete magnesium or sulfate.

You Part C is mostly magnesium sulfate, plus other chemicals that I agree are important to off set the effect of the salinity rise.

The BRS supplement is essentially the magnesium sulfate portion of your Part C. It likely has somewhat more magnesium since it also allows for some calcification consumption.

Most importantly, the point I was making is totally valid: that the BRS part 3 SHOULD NOT be used as normally directed (610 mL of the magnesium part per gallon of the alk part) IF you choose to use the Balling Part C. It will be a duplicative addition of magnesium and sulfate.

This is Exactly what I stated Somewhere in one of these threads... (and in the youtube comments of the BRS balling method videos) I however do NOT know the chemistry.. I do however, have a good audible memory and was stating that it sounds like I shouldn't be dosing both part C and the 2PART BRS MAG, because when each was described in their respective videos... they were described identically.. "to maintain ionic balance" I do feel they might be different concentrations as BRS says 2part mag should keep things where they are at and if a large adjustment is needed, use the general mix... so some type of supplementing is going on here as well. where as, part C is Only enough for the ionic balance in relation to 2part. .. and if nothing else is added for mag... over time levels will continue to drop. But duplicating the parts that maintain the ionic balance could be bad. I've been dosing part C and half of the BRS 2part mag ... both daily. and my trident shows it mag levels staying even... where as before when dosing both at the appropriate daily amounts.. they were slowly rising.