cleaner shrimp fry

[tj51]

I was sitting next to my tank and happen to notice movement in my overflow (I have a mesh drain-pipe so water is only about 4 inches high). Much to my surprise saw that there were a bunch of fry swimming around. I've raised clown fry and knew they could never make the water fall from the tank to the overflow. I haven't seen any brine shrimp swimming in the tank and I do have 2 large cleaners, so figured that's what they were. It's been about a month and as you can see (if the video works) there are "a lot" swimming, I'd estimate an easy 200+. During the past month I'd drop some chaeto in. I also run a glass through my ruge in all the chaeto and catch pods and toss them in there. I've mixed batches of reef chile and dumped it in and ground up some frozen until it was just a cloud and dumped that in there. They are getting flow from the water coming down the side of the overflow. I have a canopy with a lot of stuff on it, so if I took the time to remove that, I guess I could get these guys out, but why? They get constantly clean water and any food that might end up on the overflow. I've read that at 4 months they will die and I understand that, but it'd be cool for them not to.

EDIT - I was looking through old posts and I noticed these on 9-05, so actually they are almost 2 months old and half way to metamorphosis

 

[tektite]

Its possible the shrimp are actually adult mysis and not larval cleaners. It would be quite unusual for that amount of larvae to be together in that small of an area for so long as they are so cannibalistic.

 

[tj51]

Its possible the shrimp are actually adult mysis and not larval cleaners. It would be quite unusual for that amount of larvae to be together in that small of an area for so long as they are so cannibalistic.

anything's possible but I haven't introduced any live mysis into the tank. If they were frozen and reanimated (talk about Dr. Frankenstein, but I do know that happens) I doubt it'd be in that quantity, there are hundreds of them. If mysis reanimated and layed themselves, I'd probably have noticed them in the tank, I love to watch at night with moonlights or a red flashlight, and I have seen one of my cleaners carrying eggs.

I agree about the cannibalism and commented on another site that as the cleaners layed/hatched subsequent batches and they ended up in the overflow, it'd be another food source. Now that they are 2 months old (at least) I do see some of the larger ones becoming territorial and chasing off others. You might be able to answer this but if the fry are all from the same "clutch for shrimp?" would it even be possible for them to eat their fellow fry?

I'm not sure at what point I will be able to definitely state they are cleaner's but I'd be shocked if they weren't.

 

[tj51]

Here is a daytime video, maybe someone can be able to say, "mysis" or "cleaner." and a pic of how my overflow is situated (during the day, most hang out in the back and can't be seen in the video)

 

[tektite]

Most frozen mysis are freshwater anyway :) Saltwater mysis are easy to get as hitchhikers, especially on liverock or frags on rock. Shrimp larvae are very vulnerable as they molt, which they do quite frequently, giving the first molters/stronger larvae an advantage. The multitude of food they're getting could help reduce that though.

My experience is only with Lysmata wurdemanni, not familiar with Lysmata amboinensis larvae. I know with the peps, the larvae had huge front pincher arms (in proportion to their body), while my adult mysis of the same size have ones that are hardly bigger than the rest of their legs. Mysis are also white, while my peps had red that developed pretty early on. Mysis stay small, most 1/2" - 5/8" long max.

Can't tell for sure with that vid unfortunately. I guess time will tell :)

 

[tj51]

I certainly appreciate the input. I have to wonder that if I had mysis hitchhikers that the probability that that many would go unnoticed would be odd. Remember this is just the overflow (with some light from the sump light below). But is/was it strong enough to attract that many mysis? If no, and this is say 1/10 of the actual mysis that were hitchhiking, then we're talking about 2000 mysis shrimp. I have to assume (LOL) that if I had a piece of coral with some mysis hitchhiking (and I've added very little, especially with "rock" opposed to a frag plug, but when I mounted it, I'd have to believe that naturally some would jump off and I'd have noticed. Again, I've never gotten into this aspect of the hobby so I'm a total novice. I would just think that for 2-300 mysis to end up in the overflow, it'd have to start out with thousand. Possible! I have no idea how many fry are in a clutch of cleaners. If only a couple hundred, then I would find that hard to believe that they'd all "see the light" and end up in the overflow. I can't see the light from the underneath sump except from a side view at lights out

 

[tj51]

Most frozen mysis are freshwater anyway :) Saltwater mysis are easy to get as hitchhikers, especially on liverock or frags on rock. Shrimp larvae are very vulnerable as they molt, which they do quite frequently, giving the first molters/stronger larvae an advantage. The multitude of food they're getting could help reduce that though.

My experience is only with Lysmata wurdemanni, not familiar with Lysmata amboinensis larvae. I know with the peps, the larvae had huge front pincher arms (in proportion to their body), while my adult mysis of the same size have ones that are hardly bigger than the rest of their legs. Mysis are also white, while my peps had red that developed pretty early on. Mysis stay small, most 1/2" - 5/8" long max.

Can't tell for sure with that vid unfortunately. I guess time will tell :)

maybe the size is a telling clue. If these are at least 2 months old then they are half-way to metamorphosis by now. I would think that they should start changing or maybe should have already. If mysis, the size is close to being right. Either way, mysis are worthless and from what I've read, cleaner fry has LITTLE if any chance of survival, so either way, I have.....nothing :)

 

[shred5]

I certainly appreciate the input. I have to wonder that if I had mysis hitchhikers that the probability that that many would go unnoticed would be odd. Remember this is just the overflow (with some light from the sump light below). But is/was it strong enough to attract that many mysis? If no, and this is say 1/10 of the actual mysis that were hitchhiking, then we're talking about 2000 mysis shrimp. I have to assume (LOL) that if I had a piece of coral with some mysis hitchhiking (and I've added very little, especially with "rock" opposed to a frag plug, but when I mounted it, I'd have to believe that naturally some would jump off and I'd have noticed. Again, I've never gotten into this aspect of the hobby so I'm a total novice. I would just think that for 2-300 mysis to end up in the overflow, it'd have to start out with thousand. Possible! I have no idea how many fry are in a clutch of cleaners. If only a couple hundred, then I would find that hard to believe that they'd all "see the light" and end up in the overflow. I can't see the light from the underneath sump except from a side view at lights out

You dont know how many people said exactly the same thing as you.. there are hundreds of posts saying the same thing and they are always mysis shrimp. They multiply rapidly.

 

[tj51]

You dont know how many people said exactly the same thing as you.. there are hundreds of posts saying the same thing and they are always mysis shrimp. They multiply rapidly.

well then if that many people say the same thing, I'm not alone in my thoughts of what these could possibly be and not a total idiot. No, I'm not sure but I haven't seen anyone that is...... and from statements of "they are always mysis shrimp" and not "yours are mysis, 100%" I still want to do my homework. I've emailed an authority and I'll get his response (hopefully). it won't change anything, regardless of what they are, I'll still feed them as I'd hate to have them starve. Then if I ever remove my canopy, I can remove them and ummmm let my fish enjoy :)

 

[tj51]

You dont know how many people said exactly the same thing as you.. there are hundreds of posts saying the same thing and they are always mysis shrimp. They multiply rapidly.

Dave, I hope I didn't say it wrong. I'm sure A LOT of people make the same mistake I'm probably making. however, I am hoping that someone comes forward and says "I've seen both mysis and cleaner shrimp fry and yours are definitely mysis, instead of a statement that people always make the mistake I am. Interesting that my cleaner is carrying another batch. Yes, I might and probably have mysis. But was/am hoping that someone comes forward, says I saw the video and those are mysis. As I said above, I'm kind of trapped anyway as I can't get to them, so I have to let the whole thing play out. I do appreciate your and anyone else's feedback!

 

[tektite]

I have seen both, problem is that the video doesn't have the quality necessary to make the determination from it. Time will tell :)

With enough food most cleaners will hatch and release a new batch of larvae every 2 weeks or so.

 

[shred5]

It is the plank-tonic larval stage they go through. They would never survive long enough in a reef tank to make metamorphosis. They would be eaten and damage by filtration, plus there is not enough food available. Other than peppermint shrimp very few people have even been able to raise cleaner shrimp in lab conditions. Is it possible to have cleaner larvae in the tank for a short period sure.

 

[tj51]

It is the plank-tonic larval stage they go through. They would never survive long enough in a reef tank to make metamorphosis. They would be eaten and damage by filtration, plus there is not enough food available. Other than peppermint shrimp very few people have even been able to raise cleaner shrimp in lab conditions. Is it possible to have cleaner larvae in the tank for a short period sure.

If the argument against my shrimp "fry" not being cleaners because of the rationale you provide, then please re-read my OP. You mention they would get eaten...by what? They are by themselves in a 3 inch deep overflow. Damage by filtration, how? they are strong enough not to be sucked into the mesh overflow pipe and enjoy the current that the water cascading down the overflow provides; quality of water? Man I never had to clean a fry tank! . Food? I've provided pods, I've blended up reef food to a cloud and provided that, same with reef chile, I've put pieces of chaeto in there, and ground up nori. Will they survive metamorphosis? I'd definitely bet AGAINST it. But in the meantime, I'm giving it a try and hoping they are not mysis! LOL.

 

[tj51]

I have seen both, problem is that the video doesn't have the quality necessary to make the determination from it. Time will tell :)

With enough food most cleaners will hatch and release a new batch of larvae every 2 weeks or so.

The fry or mature cleaners? I constantly see eggs in one of my cleaners (the big cleaners, not fry) You post gives me hope that even if they don't make it past metamorphosis that I'm at least caring for cleaner fry and not mysis LOL

 

[tektite]

The fry. If you watch the adult cleaner shrimp carrying eggs, 1-2 days before release they'll turn grey instead of green. On the day of release, they'll look like they're taking up more space under her than before, after lights out that night she'll release the hatched larvae. You could watch for that, catch some of the larvae, and compare them visually to the shrimp you have in your overflow.

 

[tj51]

I tried to take some pics using a macro lens but just can't. I guess time will tell.

 

[tj51]

The fry. If you watch the adult cleaner shrimp carrying eggs, 1-2 days before release they'll turn grey instead of green. On the day of release, they'll look like they're taking up more space under her than before, after lights out that night she'll release the hatched larvae. You could watch for that, catch some of the larvae, and compare them visually to the shrimp you have in your overflow.

good idea! I really need to catch one and use a microscope. Again, they are trapped in there, so even if mysis, I'll keep feeding them and time will tell. I have noticed a lot less of the "bigger" ones and a lot of the smaller ones. If cleaners, they'd be eating the smaller ones?