I think one of the safest ways to do this would be to use one of the overflows from one of the six large tanks in your system. I think by having the display tank connected to a higher point of your system keeps the sump as the lowest relative point in the system, This keeps the sump the most likely place to flood as long. I attached a rough sketch of how this would work.
Clever and/or engineer type people! Impossible or not, Can it be done??
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TexasTodd
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Years ago I had a 90 corner that wasn't RR. I built a super strong shelf above it and had a custom sump built to match. All I did was have the drain end, similarly to how you would rig an external pump......drilled two 1.5" holes with bulkheads then drained down to the display. That flow just matched the pump that was pumping from display up to the sump. It worked great. I can't remember what I did to mitigate noise but it wasn't overly noisy.
Why not plumb it as sort of a closed loop with a nice ext pump feeding from the sump to the upstairs with a backflow preventer or a very good check valve like a watts or Hayward. drill the display overflow higher than average to limit water flowing back and get some nice surface skimming. im sure there are flaws in this but its an idea.
The problem I see is not the system when flowing but rather when power dies. Getting it balanced when flowing is easy, when power fails not so much. The water in the pipes could add up to ten gallons or more. When power fails it will drain down(gravity), where is it going to go? I doubt you will have the water line in the display so low that there would be room there. I think you would need a "middle" tank, a buffer so to speak. This kind of fails your list of wants and not wants? I hate check valves so I won't rely on those as they always seem to fail sooner or later. To get it balanced when flowing put a "box" in your upstairs sump and feed from inside it. Pump return up outside of the box and let it fill the box over a spillway. Only the water in the box is available to the downstairs so that would limit your exposure......unless power fails and the upstairs sump overfills because of drain down. I just don't see a way around a buffer tank.
OP
OP
Hey, man thanks a lot for the post! well yeah, that is essentially the concept i have. "see diagram a few posts back. The surge mechanism is the "box" and how the water will return back to the display below. the surge reservoir will only hold 20-30 gallons maybe only 10 of which will be transferred back to teh display via the surge. the pipe that fills the surge reservoir may carry an additional 5 gallons at most.
ultimately am starting to believe that a simple sump on the display would be an advantage for at least a couple reasons
1. would be a "buffer" area for any additional surge water that came down.
2. would maintain constant water level in the display
I really don't mind having a sump on the tank and see this as probably the only way to really pull his off. I just like the idea of no other equipment skimmer, heater, top off, etc as it would be part of the upstairs system.
OP
OP
Understanding how the old "surge" system" works is definitely fundamental to getting how my concept may work
this is the only vid i could find I would not rely on a siphon tube like that but this demonstrates how they do work. lol
this is the only vid i could find I would not rely on a siphon tube like that but this demonstrates how they do work. lol
OP
OP
I hear you but I'm not so sure that's the case here. The upstairs pumps could be off, and the surge system would still function as a typical surge system, the water just wouldn't be exchanged inside the reservoir.
the only way the reservoir would flood as I can see it would be if the surge flap got stuck in the closed position. However, a failsafe overflow at the top of the reservoir that drained back into the surge line plumbing underneath the tank would prevent that for sure.
Unless I'm missing something, I think you still have an issue. Follow my logic. Let's assume you start with all pumps off. Water level in the surge reservoir drops below the overflow for the return to the upstairs sump, the surge gate is closed, and all is good. Now you turn on the downstairs pump. It starts filling the surge reservoir, and as soon as the level begins to rise, some of the downstairs display water starts moving through the overflow to the upstairs sump. The flow up is greater than this outflow, so eventually you trigger the surge gate to open and "flush" the excess water back down to the display as expected. Problem is, more water went up than came back down because for some time the water level in the reservoir was above the overflow level, but below the surge level and some of this pumped water went to the sump upstairs. If the upstairs pumps are on, this is a non issue, and is the process by which you get water exchange with the upstairs sump, but with those pumps off, you don't have balance. It may not be much, but rinse and repeat enough times, and you risk draining the tank downstairs and/or overflowing the sump upstairs. Unless I'm interpreting your diagram incorrectly, I'm nearly certain this will happen. Still there's a simple fix with either a level switch on the display or the sump (or both - I'm an aerospace engineer, I would opt for redundancy) that eventually shuts the display pump off.
OP
OP
Yes, I definitely follow you on that. And thanks again for your input! very much appreciated. the additional water would be minimal but I can see how it could easily throw the balance off. In fact, it may even cause more top off to be added at a certain point in the process as well.
I am very much listening. can you give me a little more info on the level switch you mentioned?
I run a Neptune Apex system, so I'd just use their optical sensor. I have several on my auto water change and auto topoff systems. They work well. Lacking that, I'd have to do some research, but there had to be a switching outlet that can accept a sensor input.
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oceanslide
Active Member
Kind of like your surge idea but what about adding two new tanks to the system, a tank on a stand next to the main systems sump, this tank could either act as another sump and left empty or you could make it into some sort of display. water is pumped up into this tank, then overflows backdown to your office display, and then is pumped back up in the main system sump? you could have sensors to turn off the pumps to prevent any chance of floods
motortrendz
2500 Club Member
I.would set up a sump under the tank and have your upstairs sump flow down to that and use the sump under the new tank as your buffer/remote sump to protect from water surge during power failure
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So I think I have at least a good idea
while the surge idea might work you need continuous flow to have all the water act the same ie temperature. And I feel I know what Adam wants from stalking him he doesn’t want any electrical switches or anything he just wants it to work.
So my thoughts are u add a 40 gallon breeder above your sump now and make it into a bean animal type overflow box. Except you make the emergency drain back into the sump. Then the full syphon you make as the new displays return. Add a sump below and pump the water back into the old sump.
as long as the pump that is putting the water into the breeder has more flow then the pump that is pumping from sump to sump you shouldn’t have any problem with the flow not being constant.
with a power outage you would only have to worry about the full syphon line as the water would drain back thru the pump back into the original sump
while the surge idea might work you need continuous flow to have all the water act the same ie temperature. And I feel I know what Adam wants from stalking him he doesn’t want any electrical switches or anything he just wants it to work.
So my thoughts are u add a 40 gallon breeder above your sump now and make it into a bean animal type overflow box. Except you make the emergency drain back into the sump. Then the full syphon you make as the new displays return. Add a sump below and pump the water back into the old sump.
as long as the pump that is putting the water into the breeder has more flow then the pump that is pumping from sump to sump you shouldn’t have any problem with the flow not being constant.
with a power outage you would only have to worry about the full syphon line as the water would drain back thru the pump back into the original sump
Totally agree this is the most foolproof option. Problem is it violates his desire to not have a separate sump on the office display. As an engineer, I'd say he has over-constrained the problem. Like I said, with an Apex system to provide the return shutoff based on fluid level and his surge idea, this is easy. Lacking Apex, this gets more complicated, and ultimately returns to a sump on the downstairs display.So I think I have at least a good idea
while the surge idea might work you need continuous flow to have all the water act the same ie temperature. And I feel I know what Adam wants from stalking him he doesn’t want any electrical switches or anything he just wants it to work.
So my thoughts are u add a 40 gallon breeder above your sump now and make it into a bean animal type overflow box. Except you make the emergency drain back into the sump. Then the full syphon you make as the new displays return. Add a sump below and pump the water back into the old sump.
as long as the pump that is putting the water into the breeder has more flow then the pump that is pumping from sump to sump you shouldn’t have any problem with the flow not being constant.
with a power outage you would only have to worry about the full syphon line as the water would drain back thru the pump back into the original sump
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I thought he said he was okay with a little sump
Even with the sump removed I believe this idea still works just need a check valve on the bottom return pump
OP
OP
Yep totally ok with a sump under the office tank. in fact i dont think i have a choice to make any of this work lol passing through the office now but ill get back and have a better look at your design for sure.
He did say he'd accept a stump, but only if all else would not work. Also, I'd trust a set of level switches over a check valve every day. Much higher reliability.
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Not apex ones
number of check valves on my tank 1
number of times it hasn’t worked 0
number of apex optical switches on my tank 8
Number of times an optical switch has caused a problem countless enough to where I set timers if it controls something so that I don’t get water everywhere
Agreed on Apex optical switches. Bad example. In general however, level switches (other than Apex) have a higher reliability than mechanical check valves. Even more so if you utilize them in a redundant way. I suppose you could use dual check valves, but that would seriously restrict flow. Anyway, it's up to Adam what he wants to implement, and our arguing over theoretical reliability is rather academic. Either option can work and be made to be reasonable reliable.
OP
OP
So I think I have at least a good idea
while the surge idea might work you need continuous flow to have all the water act the same ie temperature. And I feel I know what Adam wants from stalking him he doesn’t want any electrical switches or anything he just wants it to work.
So my thoughts are u add a 40 gallon breeder above your sump now and make it into a bean animal type overflow box. Except you make the emergency drain back into the sump. Then the full syphon you make as the new displays return. Add a sump below and pump the water back into the old sump.
as long as the pump that is putting the water into the breeder has more flow then the pump that is pumping from sump to sump you shouldn’t have any problem with the flow not being constant.
with a power outage you would only have to worry about the full syphon line as the water would drain back thru the pump back into the original sump
So the issue i do see with this set up is that if the low pump shuts off for any reason, the high pump will keep sending water down to the display
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