Clownfish Holding Algae?

[PuffParty]

Hi all,

Question about my clownfish. She's about 8 years old so I'm used to clowns acting odd, but haven't seen this before... I added a lot of background info to give a full picture of what's been going on so I apologize for the lengthy post, but hope I covered all my bases!

Tank is 37gal, I have the clown, a valentini puffer, and a royal gramma. I'm running a HOB filter rated for 50gal, plus another hang-on sponge & biomedia filter rated for 10-20gal (going to try to make a refugium out of that when I can get rid of the flukes, but for now it's running as just the filter). Salinity is 1.023, Ph 8.0, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates slightly above 0 but under 5ppm, temp is 78F.

I've been treating for gill flukes with Prazipro for the past 10 days (no carbon in the filter of course). Gramma was added 10/22 along with a cardinalfish; I was stupid and didn't QT because I trusted the source, but the new fish brought in flukes- cardinal died within 12 hours of putting it in the tank, it was breathing incredibly heavily the whole time. Clown and puffer started flashing/scratching a week later, and puffer was breathing a little more quickly. Dosed prazi on 11/2. I had another cardinal already in the tank, never saw him flashing but unfortunately we lost him two days after the first dose. I did a FW dip after he died and did not see anything, but I'm still pretty sure it's flukes... A few mins after the first dose, the puffer was scratching quite a bit and then no scratching for about 3 days. Gramma had been hiding since everyone started showing symptoms, and he's been coming back out again since the first dose. Everyone has been breathing normally since the first dose. Second dose was on 11/7, and same deal after that- puffer was scratching a few mins later, clown coughed a bit. No scratching for two days, then yesterday the gramma started scratching on the gravel. I'm planning a 3rd dose for 11/14 because I don't think I waited long enough for the second dose and may still have some flukes hatching. No one has developed any spots, no observable appearance changes, all eating very well despite the prazi, normal poops, and no behavior changes besides the scratching.

Anyway, today is 4 days post-second dose and I did a 20% water change/gravel vacuum. The clown always stresses when I have my hands in the tank and bites the heck out of me, but always calms down not long after I'm done. This time though, she's acting very odd. For about an hour post water change she was holding her mouth slightly open and breathing heavily, I thought either she hurt herself biting at me and/or the flukes make it harder to breathe so the extra stress and aggression got her out of breath. But it's been almost 3 hours post water change now and she's not holding her mouth open as much anymore (still more open than usual though), still breathing heavily (not quickly, normal rate, but gills flaring a bit more than usual) and the weirdest part- she's been holding onto the algae with her mouth. I've attached a video to show exactly what she's doing with the algae. She'll hold it for up to a minute, then spit it out and swim around for a few mins, then go back to holding it. Otherwise, she's still swimming normally and did eat when I fed them a little while ago.

Everyone else is acting normally, I checked Ph before and after the WC and it's still the same, temp went up to 80 but has come back down to 78, salinity of the new water was matched to the tank and I dosed prime in the new water prior to adding it to the tank. I also add WC water a gallon at a time, so the 2 degree temp change shouldn't have been an immediate change either. I run a bubble wall in the tank, plus surface agitation from the HOB which I've turned up to a higher flow since dosing Prazi, and a little added agitation from the secondary small filter, so I wouldn't think it would be an aeration issue (plus, water change, so there's definitely oxygen in the water).

Anyone have an idea what's up with her and what she's doing with this algae? Maybe using the algae to scratch her gills from the inside, either because of the flukes or maybe she swallowed something while going after me that irritated her mouth? She does host the patch of algae under the patch she's holding onto, in case that matters at all. Does this seem concerning, indicate something other than flukes, should I be treating differently...?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

You're correct - only one species of fluke (Neobenedenia) can be seen in dip water without a microscope - gill flukes are too small, you need to diagnose that as you have been - by symptoms, and then, the reaction of the fish after a dip. In some cases, if the fluke infection is too heavy, giving a freshwater dip is fatal. All the flukes act like little corks. When you kill them all, they leave little holes in the fish's gills and they can "bleed out". There is no real way around that though, as you can't leave the flukes in place either. I agree, your first two prazi treatments were too close together.

That all said, sorry, I don't know why the clown is holding onto algae like that. I've seen some filefish do that as a normal behavior, but not clownfish.

Jay

 

[PuffParty]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

You're correct - only one species of fluke (Neobenedenia) can be seen in dip water without a microscope - gill flukes are too small, you need to diagnose that as you have been - by symptoms, and then, the reaction of the fish after a dip. In some cases, if the fluke infection is too heavy, giving a freshwater dip is fatal. All the flukes act like little corks. When you kill them all, they leave little holes in the fish's gills and they can "bleed out". There is no real way around that though, as you can't leave the flukes in place either. I agree, your first two prazi treatments were too close together.

That all said, sorry, I don't know why the clown is holding onto algae like that. I've seen some filefish do that as a normal behavior, but not clownfish.

Jay

Thanks for responding, Jay. I can see you're always helping out on this board, so I really appreciate it!

Clown started looking more distressed about an hour after posting and was starting to breathe more rapidly and bumping her mouth against the decor, rocks, and gravel so I ended up doing the third Prazi dose last night in a last ditch effort in case it was the flukes and not a mouth injury (I did see her close her mouth, so didn't seem like lockjaw so I figured going for the flukes was my best bet). No scratching from the puffer after this, the gramma was scratching a little bit, and the clown was coughing/yawning- but this time I did actually see little white grain of sand looking things fall out of the clown's gills! So could be Neobenedenia. I counted around 6 or 7, but two of these things seemed to be two or three gain-like things clumped together so total might be around 12 (can flukes clump together when they fall out?). I think the FW dip on the dead cardinal didn't yield any flukes because of what you explained since it was two days after the first dose and the flukes were already dead.

I did wake up at like 5am and checked the clown and was really concerned, she was swimming erratically in her hosted algae patch and her lips down to her chin were very pale. As of now she's looking better though- mouth is back to normal, color back on her lips/chin, and she's laying in the hosted algae (she lays sideways on this patch like clowns do in their anemones, so it's normal behavior for her) instead of wiggling erratically. Still breathing more heavily, but not rapidly, and mouth isn't open like she's gasping anymore but still yawning occasionally. She's shoved her face in the algae a couple times since I've been up for the past hour, but I haven't seen her grab it like that again yet. So I guess I'll chalk it up to flukes.

I couldn't find anything about them grabbing the algae like that anywhere! Saw the cases of lockjaw from grabbing the anemone tentacles like that, but the jaw issues always seemed to be because of grabbing the tentacles instead of the other way around. So maybe it's a natural behavior that got stirred up due to fluke discomfort, at least that's my best guess!

For a follow-up question about the flukes. Since this was the third Prazi dose and I ended up doing this one earlier than planned, I'm thinking it may not end up eradicating them. Hopefully I got lucky and killed off all the hatchlings between this and the second dose, but I did find that after 3-4 doses Prazi doesn't really work anymore. So I guess my next step if they do start being symptomatic again is to run hyposalinity? I saw one other thread saying Grammas are sensitive though, so do you have an idea if hypo is okay with Grammas and the puffer (since it's scaleless)? And for the salinity, I saw others saying to run it half as strong which I calculated to be 0.512... Is that correct? Just want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding and end up dropping the salinity too terribly low and doing more damage. I've had the clown for 8 years and puffer for 6, so I'm gutted that I got them sick in the first place. They'd definitely be hard losses.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for responding, Jay. I can see you're always helping out on this board, so I really appreciate it!

Clown started looking more distressed about an hour after posting and was starting to breathe more rapidly and bumping her mouth against the decor, rocks, and gravel so I ended up doing the third Prazi dose last night in a last ditch effort in case it was the flukes and not a mouth injury (I did see her close her mouth, so didn't seem like lockjaw so I figured going for the flukes was my best bet). No scratching from the puffer after this, the gramma was scratching a little bit, and the clown was coughing/yawning- but this time I did actually see little white grain of sand looking things fall out of the clown's gills! So could be Neobenedenia. I counted around 6 or 7, but two of these things seemed to be two or three gain-like things clumped together so total might be around 12 (can flukes clump together when they fall out?). I think the FW dip on the dead cardinal didn't yield any flukes because of what you explained since it was two days after the first dose and the flukes were already dead.

I did wake up at like 5am and checked the clown and was really concerned, she was swimming erratically in her hosted algae patch and her lips down to her chin were very pale. As of now she's looking better though- mouth is back to normal, color back on her lips/chin, and she's laying in the hosted algae (she lays sideways on this patch like clowns do in their anemones, so it's normal behavior for her) instead of wiggling erratically. Still breathing more heavily, but not rapidly, and mouth isn't open like she's gasping anymore but still yawning occasionally. She's shoved her face in the algae a couple times since I've been up for the past hour, but I haven't seen her grab it like that again yet. So I guess I'll chalk it up to flukes.

I couldn't find anything about them grabbing the algae like that anywhere! Saw the cases of lockjaw from grabbing the anemone tentacles like that, but the jaw issues always seemed to be because of grabbing the tentacles instead of the other way around. So maybe it's a natural behavior that got stirred up due to fluke discomfort, at least that's my best guess!

For a follow-up question about the flukes. Since this was the third Prazi dose and I ended up doing this one earlier than planned, I'm thinking it may not end up eradicating them. Hopefully I got lucky and killed off all the hatchlings between this and the second dose, but I did find that after 3-4 doses Prazi doesn't really work anymore. So I guess my next step if they do start being symptomatic again is to run hyposalinity? I saw one other thread saying Grammas are sensitive though, so do you have an idea if hypo is okay with Grammas and the puffer (since it's scaleless)? And for the salinity, I saw others saying to run it half as strong which I calculated to be 0.512... Is that correct? Just want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding and end up dropping the salinity too terribly low and doing more damage. I've had the clown for 8 years and puffer for 6, so I'm gutted that I got them sick in the first place. They'd definitely be hard losses.

You can run hyposalinity on those fish for flukes, you don’t need to go as low as you do for ich, just go to a specific gravity of 1.012 for 30 days (no invertebrates of course).
Also, just to double check - if you are using Prazipro, you need to have extra aeration in the tank.

Jay

 

[PuffParty]

You can run hyposalinity on those fish for flukes, you don’t need to go as low as you do for ich, just go to a specific gravity of 1.012 for 30 days (no invertebrates of course).
Also, just to double check - if you are using Prazipro, you need to have extra aeration in the tank.

Jay

Okay great, that seems much less scary than cutting the salinity fully in half! I only have a handful of snails and hermits, so easy enough to grab them out for a month. And yes, I've upped the aeration too- I have the HOB filter running at a higher flow than usual to agitate the surface more, plus a bubble wall along the full length of the back wall that I've turned all the way up, and a little extra surface agitation from the small hang-on filter too. The clown has also calmed down a lot more over the course of the day and is acting more and more like her usual self, so fingers crossed everyone comes out okay.

Thanks again!

 

[PuffParty]

Back again!

So, I ended up going full hypo as of 11/26- a few days into the salinity descent, the Gramma got a good handful of ich spots so I went for it. 1.009. Everybody was looking good, no problems, the ich spots fell off before even reaching full hypo and haven't returned. Only the Gramma ever had spots. (Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the spots, but they were like individual grains of sand, not velvet-y).

Bumped temp up to 80F, nitrates still just below 5ppm, nitrites 0, and ammonia 0. Salinity 1.009.

As of 12/2, the Gramma has been struggling. He's just lying on the bottom and breathing heavily. Sometimes he'll pop up and show some interest in food, but even when he does, it's usually just a piece or two that he eats. And I've seen him 'yawn' a couple times. To note, I saw the puffer flash twice in the past few days.

Could this be from whatever damage the ich and/or flukes did? It's just odd to me that the Gramma took such a poor turn about a week after the spots were gone, and he shouldn't have been reinfected during hypo since that should have killed the free swimming stage... Is there anything I can do for this poor dude? And if it might be something else now, are there any meds I can safely dose while in hypo?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Back again!

So, I ended up going full hypo as of 11/26- a few days into the salinity descent, the Gramma got a good handful of ich spots so I went for it. 1.009. Everybody was looking good, no problems, the ich spots fell off before even reaching full hypo and haven't returned. Only the Gramma ever had spots. (Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the spots, but they were like individual grains of sand, not velvet-y).

Bumped temp up to 80F, nitrates still just below 5ppm, nitrites 0, and ammonia 0. Salinity 1.009.

As of 12/2, the Gramma has been struggling. He's just lying on the bottom and breathing heavily. Sometimes he'll pop up and show some interest in food, but even when he does, it's usually just a piece or two that he eats. And I've seen him 'yawn' a couple times. To note, I saw the puffer flash twice in the past few days.

Could this be from whatever damage the ich and/or flukes did? It's just odd to me that the Gramma took such a poor turn about a week after the spots were gone, and he shouldn't have been reinfected during hypo since that should have killed the free swimming stage... Is there anything I can do for this poor dude? And if it might be something else now, are there any meds I can safely dose while in hypo?

It could be secondary infection from flukes/ich. Can you post a clear video of the gramma?

A number of medications can be mixed with hypo....just need some clues to say what direction to go.

Jay

 

[PuffParty]

I'll try to get one if I can. He's been mostly hiding in a wedge between a rock and a plant to where I have to use a flashlight to see him at all, and even then I can only see his head or tail, and he moves further back once I shine a light on him I'll try feeding them and see if he'll come out at all.

 

[PuffParty]

Okay, after 45 minutes and many failed attempts, I finally got a decent one. I hope this link works, it's too big to attach here...


You can sort of see in that how he's not breathing quickly, just more deeply, like his gills are flaring more. He yawned twice during my attempts too, but of course that wasn't on camera.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Okay, after 45 minutes and many failed attempts, I finally got a decent one. I hope this link works, it's too big to attach here...


You can sort of see in that how he's not breathing quickly, just more deeply, like his gills are flaring more. He yawned twice during my attempts too, but of course that wasn't on camera.

The breathing looks ok to me.
Did I understand you to say that it is still eating some food?

Grammas don’t like full hyposalinity, it seems to stress them. One thing to consider - a fish in hypo is not as buoyant as they are in full seawater, so there is some tendency for them to sink a bit.

Jay

 

[PuffParty]

The breathing looks ok to me.
Did I understand you to say that it is still eating some food?

Grammas don’t like full hyposalinity, it seems to stress them. One thing to consider - a fish in hypo is not as buoyant as they are in full seawater, so there is some tendency for them to sink a bit.

Jay

Eh, he ate one or two pieces yesterday and the day before, but nothing substantial. He came out for the video due to be interested in the food, but didn't eat any and also didn't eat this morning. Didn't eat on 12/2, either.

That would make so much sense! I was so confused as to why he looks fine and still reacts to me by swimming away if I look at him or light him up... I've never seen a sick fish still be as 'with it' and attentive as he is. At least not one that was laying on the bottom breathing funny. Glad to know the breathing actually looks okay, though. I very well may just be paying attention to it more since I was worried about him. Should he still be okay to go the full 30 days at hypo, assuming he still eats at least a little bit occasionally?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Eh, he ate one or two pieces yesterday and the day before, but nothing substantial. He came out for the video due to be interested in the food, but didn't eat any and also didn't eat this morning. Didn't eat on 12/2, either.

That would make so much sense! I was so confused as to why he looks fine and still reacts to me by swimming away if I look at him or light him up... I've never seen a sick fish still be as 'with it' and attentive as he is. At least not one that was laying on the bottom breathing funny. Glad to know the breathing actually looks okay, though. I very well may just be paying attention to it more since I was worried about him. Should he still be okay to go the full 30 days at hypo, assuming he still eats at least a little bit occasionally?

You might consider cutting the time to 21 days if it doesn’t start eating better.

Jay

 

[PuffParty]

You might consider cutting the time to 21 days if it doesn’t start eating better.

Jay

Got it. Thanks so much again, Jay. I really appreciate it (as do my fish!)

 

[PuffParty]

Here again, gahhh.

We’re 19 days into full hypo. Salinity hasn’t risen above 1.009. Should the fish still be flashing at this point?

The puffer has been flashing occasionally since about maybe a week ago, but something is really bothering them today. Puffer has been scratching across the rocks pretty consistently and blew up for a minute today (which he also did with the initial possible fluke issue). Clown is mouthing at the rocks and gravel. Still no visible signs of anything wrong, no spots, no wounds, no discoloration or raggedy fins, normal poop… not sure where the heck to go from here. Today seems worse instead of better.

Any thoughts on what I might look into next? I do have API General Cure, maybe give that a shot once I get the salinity back up?

 

[PuffParty]

Oh duh, forgot a potentially important piece. No idea if this points to something else or not…

I ended up putting the Gramma in QT because he started getting quite poorly. Stopped eating again, less responsive, and tipping to the side. I’ve started raising the salinity in the QT and he’s perked back up, eating well and all…. But he’s sideways. Not lying on the bottom, still hovering just above the bottom as usual, but on his side. He can stay upright if he swims around, and still seems to swim fine.

Clown and puffer are not sideways, just acting fluke-y again. So no idea if it’s related or if the hypo just screwed him up a bit.

 

[PuffParty]

Ah, third post in a row, I’m sorry!

Cleaning algae out of thank currently (brown algae took over with the salt drop) and just found these things. Never seen them before… I think they’re all round like that main piece, but get cut up very easily with my brush or if they fold and I try to unfold them. Could this maybe be something…?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here again, gahhh.

We’re 19 days into full hypo. Salinity hasn’t risen above 1.009. Should the fish still be flashing at this point?

The puffer has been flashing occasionally since about maybe a week ago, but something is really bothering them today. Puffer has been scratching across the rocks pretty consistently and blew up for a minute today (which he also did with the initial possible fluke issue). Clown is mouthing at the rocks and gravel. Still no visible signs of anything wrong, no spots, no wounds, no discoloration or raggedy fins, normal poop… not sure where the heck to go from here. Today seems worse instead of better.

Any thoughts on what I might look into next? I do have API General Cure, maybe give that a shot once I get the salinity back up?

I've never had flukes survive below 1.012, there are brackish water flukes that can, but they are rare, and the only way to get them is through infection from a fish that has them, and those are fish that are not often kept in aquariums. There is some thought that mollies could bring brackish water flukes into a tank.

Scratching/flashing can also be behavioral, fish do it because they sort of developed the habit. However, when that is seen, it is just a scratch here or there, not very often. Particles in the tank water is a common cause for scratching/flashing and coughing in fish....but you would see those floating around.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Oh duh, forgot a potentially important piece. No idea if this points to something else or not…

I ended up putting the Gramma in QT because he started getting quite poorly. Stopped eating again, less responsive, and tipping to the side. I’ve started raising the salinity in the QT and he’s perked back up, eating well and all…. But he’s sideways. Not lying on the bottom, still hovering just above the bottom as usual, but on his side. He can stay upright if he swims around, and still seems to swim fine.

Clown and puffer are not sideways, just acting fluke-y again. So no idea if it’s related or if the hypo just screwed him up a bit.

Grammas often act off when exposed to hyposalinity. Deep water serranids as a group are one type of fish that I see adverse symptoms in while in hypo. However, they typically make it through the process o.k.

Grammas will orient to surfaces - their most common position is upside down in caves. In aquariums, they tend to orient more upright, but as long as it is still eating, I wouldn't worry about posture too much.

Jay

 

[PuffParty]

Grammas often act off when exposed to hyposalinity. Deep water serranids as a group are one type of fish that I see adverse symptoms in while in hypo. However, they typically make it through the process o.k.

Grammas will orient to surfaces - their most common position is upside down in caves. In aquariums, they tend to orient more upright, but as long as it is still eating, I wouldn't worry about posture too much.

Jay

I’m hoping it’s just something irritating them in the water, I’m going to keep an eye on them today since I cleaned out the algae yesterday and I’m about to do their water change today. Hopefully that’ll fix it up. Shouldn’t be any brackish flukes since none of the previously added fish were brackish. Have you ever seen microbubbles irritate them like that by any chance? Because I do still have the filter turned up to increase the flow through a UV light I added and that is creating a bunch of microbubbles.

And that’s interesting with the gramma… he is always turned with his belly toward the black wall in the tank (filter compartment) so maybe he’s just doing it on purpose and orienting to that due to the bare bottom! I wasn’t too concerned with him at this point since he’s happy as a clam otherwise, basically just added it in case it creates a bigger picture of what’s going on here.

At least no one is on death’s door at this point so I’m hopeful! I’ve never dealt with longer-term illness like this so I appreciate you putting up with all my beginner level questions!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’m hoping it’s just something irritating them in the water, I’m going to keep an eye on them today since I cleaned out the algae yesterday and I’m about to do their water change today. Hopefully that’ll fix it up. Shouldn’t be any brackish flukes since none of the previously added fish were brackish. Have you ever seen microbubbles irritate them like that by any chance? Because I do still have the filter turned up to increase the flow through a UV light I added and that is creating a bunch of microbubbles.

And that’s interesting with the gramma… he is always turned with his belly toward the black wall in the tank (filter compartment) so maybe he’s just doing it on purpose and orienting to that due to the bare bottom! I wasn’t too concerned with him at this point since he’s happy as a clam otherwise, basically just added it in case it creates a bigger picture of what’s going on here.

At least no one is on death’s door at this point so I’m hopeful! I’ve never dealt with longer-term illness like this so I appreciate you putting up with all my beginner level questions!

Yes - I've see micro bubbles causing coughing, so I imagine that them bumping into the fish's skin might also cause a scratching reaction.

Jay