Concerns about ethicality

[CjAmaryllis]

Hello all,
I just got into this hobby. I added my very first fish and a couple CUC to the quarantine tank today. It's a little clownfish. I could see how frightened he was by the whole ordeal and it made me worried that maybe I'm not doing the right thing. I am really fascinated by marine ecosystems and genuinely care for the well-being of my creatures. How can I do this as ethically as possible?
I want to avoid anything that is taken from the ocean. Is there a way to verify things are captive bred?
I want to buy from stores that genuinely care for the well-being of their fish. How can I tell a good fish store from a bad one?
Is there anything else I could be doing to make sure the fish are living their best life? I don't want them to live insufferable lives.
How do you guys feel about it?

 

[DarkReefer]

Keep your tank stable and healthy and ensure the fish have are suitable for the size tank you have etc and feed them what they need you'll be fine.
Look at the upside, if you're this worried about your fish and you do everything in your power to make them comfortable and happy in life, that fish is going to be FAR better off with you than someone else who doesn't look at them the same way so you'd be doing it a favour.

Welcome and enjoy your journey

Ps. I don't really have much in the way of advice about stores but there are a number of places out there that sell captive bred. There's a number of places that do, do this. Biota is a name I see thrown around a lot but I know nothing about them.

 

[Paul B]

If you learn how to properly care for your creatures, they will live a lot longer in your tank then they would in the sea. The main downside is that the fish we keep will not be able to help replace the fish in the sea.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, the ethicality of keeping a fish doesn't change much with wild caught vs captive bred. Other issues may change, but the life experience of the fish in your tank will be largely the same.

IMO, it is incumbent on us to provide an environment that does not stress the fish and allows it a normal life.

Fortunately, clownfish may be among the easiest to do that since they do not wander much in the wild, and will stay in one place. I think it is reasonable to assume that a clown in an anemone in a reasonable size tank is not experiencing life much differently than a clownfish in the same type of anemone in the ocean.

Other fish, such as tangs, are a more complicated analysis.

 

[mues]

As long as you keep your parameters stable and see to it being well cared for... seems ethical to me. You aren't putting a shark or grouper in your tank, so it seems much safer too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you learn how to properly care for your creatures, they will live a lot longer in your tank then they would in the sea. The main downside is that the fish we keep will not be able to help replace the fish in the sea.

I would personally not accept lifespan as the only indicator to suitability. Certainly a shortened life span is a problem, but a longer one does not imply no problem.

A prisoner in a jail cell may live a long life, but that doesn't mean it is ethical to put a person in such a cell for their lifetime. Imagine an alien taking you prisoner and keeping you in an 8x8 cell in their zoo. You might live a long time, but not be happy.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Hello all,
I just got into this hobby. I added my very first fish and a couple CUC to the quarantine tank today. It's a little clownfish. I could see how frightened he was by the whole ordeal and it made me worried that maybe I'm not doing the right thing. I am really fascinated by marine ecosystems and genuinely care for the well-being of my creatures. How can I do this as ethically as possible?
I want to avoid anything that is taken from the ocean. Is there a way to verify things are captive bred?
I want to buy from stores that genuinely care for the well-being of their fish. How can I tell a good fish store from a bad one?
Is there anything else I could be doing to make sure the fish are living their best life? I don't want them to live insufferable lives.
How do you guys feel about it?

You're setting impossible standards for yourself partly because you can't speak to the fish but mostly because every single fish store has fish die every morning. It was my job actually to remove the dead fish before we opened and there wasn't usually any shortage. That was a great shop. If you truly can't help but feel guilt about not knowing your fish is happy in your tank regardless of how much care and thought you put into it, you won't be able to enjoy the hobby very much IMO...treat the fish with care...beyond that, you and nobody else knows how "happy" it is.

 

[jda]

First, learn the best possible way to care for your fish. With a new tank, be cautious and believe those who actually have tanks. Avoid advice from any manufacturer, vendor or poster who is on here for glory or doesn't practice what they preach.

Once you have a good environment, go slow, be patient, keep learning and all of that. There are wild corals and fish that are sourced unethically, so avoid these if you can. Sustainable fish and inverts with good supply chains are different. Some things are abundant and can live longer lives in our tanks than in the wild... or at least the same. For example, I have 30-50 urchins that have been with me for years and years... no chance that at least a few of these would not have been dinner for some trigger or parrotfish.

 

[Paul B]

I would personally not accept lifespan as the only indicator to suitability.

No it is not, but a long lifespan "and" the fact that the fish is spawning is. Unhealthy or stressed fish don't spawn. I believe a long lived fish that lives to it's normal lifespan "and" spawns is ethical. Of course it is more ethical to leave the fish in the sea but we are all unethical when it comes to that.

Keeping fish where they die prematurely from some silly disease is unethical as it is very easy to keep them healthy and unstressed if we know what we are doing.

I have a couple of fireclowns over 30 years old. They spawn constantly and I "assume" they are happy and probably older than most similar fish in the sea so I have no unethical views of those fish.

 

[mizimmer90]

Kind of the same concern over any pet; is a cat happier in our homes?

I think a fish in the ocean would be just as scared (and more rightfully so lol)

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm unsure the fish is aware it isn't in the ocean... people seem to assume they almost have human intelligence when discussing ethics but I really doubt they do

 

[Anemone_Fanatic]

I'm not going to get into an ethics argument, but to me, it's ethical to keep fish in an aquarium. Yes, the fish doesn't have as much space, but as an analogy, I'm fairly confident that all of us would rather live in a house with amenities and safety than be wandering around in the woods. It's obviously slightly different as the fish doesn't really have a choice if it's going into the tank or staying in the ocean, but still, it's probably going to be better for their longterm health and security.

I wouldn't worry too much about the ethics of wild fish. If you want to stay away from them though, most stores sell captive bred specimens in a limited quantity. From my experience, most species which can be captive bred that you see in stores are captive bred whenever you find them, for instance, I can't recall the last time I saw wild clowns at my local store. You can also order online directly from farms like ORA and Biota if you want to be sure that you're getting captive bred.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm not going to get into an ethics argument, but to me, it's ethical to keep fish in an aquarium. Yes, the fish doesn't have as much space, but as an analogy, I'm fairly confident that all of us would rather live in a house with amenities and safety than be wandering around in the woods. It's obviously slightly different as the fish doesn't really have a choice if it's going into the tank or staying in the ocean, but still, it's probably going to be better for their longterm health and security.

I wouldn't worry too much about the ethics of wild fish. If you want to stay away from them though, most stores sell captive bred specimens in a limited quantity. From my experience, most species which can be captive bred that you see in stores are captive bred whenever you find them, for instance, I can't recall the last time I saw wild clowns at my local store. You can also order online directly from farms like ORA and Biota if you want to be sure that you're getting captive bred.

Well said... personally, I don't even think the fish knows the difference between the tank and the ocean after a pretty short period of time...I'm not fish neurobiologist but fish act almost exclusively on instinct...and almost the only instincts I can think of atm are fear and hunger. That leads me to tend to believe there's not much reasoning going on Ina fish's mind that because there no need for it.

It feels ridiculous for me to say this but I feel like some people can't accept that all life forms are equally intelligent and feel the same emotions as they do. I actually recall a university professor telling me once that people need to stop projecting their interpretations of an animals behavior too strictly because it makes them wrongly believe the animal is feeling the same as they themselves would feel.

 

[littlefoxx]

Hello all,
I just got into this hobby. I added my very first fish and a couple CUC to the quarantine tank today. It's a little clownfish. I could see how frightened he was by the whole ordeal and it made me worried that maybe I'm not doing the right thing. I am really fascinated by marine ecosystems and genuinely care for the well-being of my creatures. How can I do this as ethically as possible?
I want to avoid anything that is taken from the ocean. Is there a way to verify things are captive bred?
I want to buy from stores that genuinely care for the well-being of their fish. How can I tell a good fish store from a bad one?
Is there anything else I could be doing to make sure the fish are living their best life? I don't want them to live insufferable lives.
How do you guys feel about it?

Theres a fair amount of fish not captive bred as well as captive bred. You just gotta research what kinds are able to be captive bred. I say check out stores and how they keep their tanks and the people that work there will show you if they are ethical and care about their fish friends! Welcome to the hobby! You should get another clown since they like to be in pairs

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Theres a fair amount of fish not captive bred as well as captive bred. You just gotta research what kinds are able to be captive bred. I say check out stores and how they keep their tanks and the people that work there will show you if they are ethical and care about their fish friends! Welcome to the hobby! You should get another clown since they like to be in pairs

CORAL Magazine has a full list actually...the tricky part is knowing that the shop nearby gets them...I'd imagine a good number are still only captive bred in small number...still that progress!

 

[littlefoxx]

CORAL Magazine has a full list actually...the tricky part is knowing that the shop nearby gets them...I'd imagine a good number are still only captive bred in small number...still that progress!

Oh thats cool! Need to check that magazine out! And yeah agree 100% I just pick my stores that way and if they are healthy fish thats good for me. And I can give them care and love too when I adopt the fish

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Oh thats cool! Need to check that magazine out! And yeah agree 100% I just pick my stores that way and if they are healthy fish thats good for me. And I can give them care and love too when I adopt the fish

You can probably view the list for free online actually...it's a great magazine but slightly pricey if you only want to see the breeding list. I wish there were more than 6 issues a year!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@littlefoxx here you go!

CORAL Magazine's Captive-Bred Marine Aquarium Fish List - Project Homepage

This page provides a static reference point and summary for the annually-updated CORAL Magazine captive-bred marine aquarium fish species list.

www.reef2rainforest.com

 

[littlefoxx]

You can probably view the list for free online actually...it's a great magazine but slightly pricey if you only want to see the breeding list. I wish there were more than 6 issues a year!

Whats all in the magazine??? Ive seen my LFS sell them but never thought to ask about them

 

[littlefoxx]

@littlefoxx here you go!

CORAL Magazine's Captive-Bred Marine Aquarium Fish List - Project Homepage

This page provides a static reference point and summary for the annually-updated CORAL Magazine captive-bred marine aquarium fish species list.

www.reef2rainforest.com

Thank you! I will have a look!