Continuous Nitrate increase

Treefer32

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I don't know whether nitrates are toxic to coral and fish in a mixed reef. All I know is I added a few corals in November. An Aussie Elegance, a long tentacle fungia plate and a Green Bubble coral. As my Nitrates increased, my Elegance died and my plate has receeded significantly. Both looked amazing then nitrates steadily increased.

From June to October I had trended stable - slowly downward with a peak reading of 44 June 22nd. Then down to 18 end of July. They stayed between 25 and 31 until October. At which time they hit a low point of 11 on October 8th. From there it's a very steady increase upward from 11 to 60. Where they are currently. I run three forms of nitrate removal and 1 form of Phosphate removal.

Tank is just around 4 years operational.

I have 16 fish in a 350 gallon. I don't understand what is contributing to my nitrates?

I'm on my second week of dosing Micro Bacter Clean to increase bacterial diversity. Since dosing that per instructions, I have seen a rise from 50 to 60 in nitrates. . .

PH won't rise above 7.5 - 7.8 Despite running a CO2 Scrubber with new media.

I use only baked baking soda for alk - dosing around 10 ml per hour of solution.

3 Denitrification tools:

Vodka Dose: About a month ago I increased from 19 ml a week to 25 ml a day. Nitrates increased from 25 to 50. I now increased another 5ml a week to 30 ml a day. despite my PH hitting 7.5 at night.

SeaChem Matrix Rock: I'm running around 10 lbs of seachem matrix rock in a Nu Clear Cannister filter with water controlled through the cannister from my return pump. It's slow moving water.

Bathshea Pellet Reactor: I just refreshed the pellets in the reactor, Leaving the old pellets in there and added fresh.


Questionable Denitrification tools:
Red Sea Rollermat 1200: I don't know if Roller mats / socks help with nitrates or not, but I go through a roll of paper every 2-3 weeks.

Skimmer: Skimmer air hose is run to a CO2 reactor. Don't know if this removes nitrates or not, but, I consistently get black liquid from it weekly.

Turbo Aquatics ATS: I don't think hair algae removes nitrates, but it's consistently overflowing with hair algae every 7-10 days.

Phosphates are running on average between .2 and .25 ppm.

Some stuff I've read shows that Denitrifying bacteria won't grow if nitrates are above 20? Or grows slowly? Do I just have too large of fish producing too much waste. I do have two creole Anthias. The male is easily 10-11 inches in size. He eats so much food! If I fed the cubes of frozen food he would probably swallow 10 cubes (whole) by himself.

Should I be caring about the increasing nitrates and will nitrates kill corals and/or decrease health of fish. I was told nitrates only affect freshwater fish. They fuel algae in reefs, but do they harm fish or corals? My experience thus far is they do. But, I don't know the consequences of such high nitrates other than losing my elegance coral.

Here's a chart of my nitrate trends from June to January:
1672762576593.png
 

brandon429

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nitrate= unrelated to your issues and since nitrate test kit comparison posts only put up agreeing measures 5% of the time we can't even be sure the levels are accurate above. If you were posting results from 3 different nitrate test kits and one was hanna digital I'd tend to value the measure more

Paul B here has the oldest reef on the site, and he's posted nitrates at 160 sustained for months and years before, therefore we can't claim any harm by nitrates. he has coral health and fish health everyone agrees is ideal.


Randy's article on nitrates also shore up a long of the concern regarding safety:



*we expect elegance coral problems, that's not a suprise. in any parameter set.
 

sixty_reefer

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Could I ask what you using to test phosphates?
 

saltwaterpicaso

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i had issues with keeping torches and elegance corals and had high nitrates i used a lot if different methods none really worked that well i ended up buying a sulfer denitrator and have not looked back it works amazing and i have had no euphylia issues since
 
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Treefer32

Treefer32

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i had issues with keeping torches and elegance corals and had high nitrates i used a lot if different methods none really worked that well i ended up buying a sulfer denitrator and have not looked back it works amazing and i have had no euphylia issues since
I've thought about sulphur denitrators in the past and much of what I've read is they're tricky to tune correctly. Any information on the on you are using and maintenance time to tune and keep optimized would be great!

What is odd is that my bubble coral has really taken off, I got some test hammer corals (tiny 2 headed frag) and it's doing amazing, and a frog spawn of some type that's doing well also. I have a green short tentacled plate coral that's also done very well through the years. What's odd with my Acros is that they no longer grow new branches like they used to. Instead, the existing branches have gotten significantly thicker. They continue to grow skeleton on their existing branches instead of growing new branches.

I don't know how they became programmed to do this. If I had the space to do it, I would want to test the correlation of nitrates and coral skeletal thickness vs. width and height growth. The branches have gotten so thick I can barely frag them by hand anymore. They're strong and healthy, just oddly shaped.

My green plate I've had for 3+ years, has grown bulker in the center, it looks more like a mound than a plate, but is definitely a plate. It didn't grow outward, instead it just bulked up in the center.

My Chalice and montipora grows like weeds. In fact if I don't do something my chalice will pretty much take over my entire tank stinging anything around it.

Coral wise, some of my corals are loving the high nitrates. Fish seem unfased by the nitrates. Even Randy's article posted here indicated nitrates should remain in check for overall reef health.

How do I know when nitrates are detrimental?

As to testing, I only use Hana checkers for alk, Ultra Low Range Hana phosphate tester, and High range Hana nitrate tester.

I do not use the lines on the cuvettes though for measuring water. I have gotten 10 ml syringes that measure 10 ml, and on each cuvette, the water level is slightly above the line. I thoroughly rinse the cuvettes with RO water (and store filled with RO water) then flush with tank water 6-10 times each prior to testing. I thoroughly clean the outside of the glass and test.

The one thing I noticed odd, was the last time I tested Nitrates, I accidently just pushed the button instead of holding it down to get the 7 minute timer. When it did the instant read (With the reagent added) it said 14.5 PPM. When Held the button down and waited the 7 minutes, it read 59.

I have a tough time discerning colors, which is why I use the Hanna testers. When I was testing nitrates using Red Sea Pro tests, I thought my nitrates were under 10 based on color. When they were possibly 40-50.
 
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saltwaterpicaso

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I've thought about sulphur denitrators in the past and much of what I've read is they're tricky to tune correctly. Any information on the on you are using and maintenance time to tune and keep optimized would be great!
i just have mine at a fast drip and make sure the nozzle does not clog up the only issue i have ever had was the power went out and the supply pump did not restart on its own and the bacteria died off. i use a sicce supply pump now and no issues the aqualifter they want you to use or mini maxi suck. im on my 3rd year with it make sure you size it to the tank i always go way to big in this case the big one was to efficient i had to go to the smaller size denitrator
 
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Treefer32

Treefer32

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Which Sulphur r
i just have mine at a fast drip and make sure the nozzle does not clog up the only issue i have ever had was the power went out and the supply pump did not restart on its own and the bacteria died off. i use a sicce supply pump now and no issues the aqualifter they want you to use or mini maxi suck. im on my 3rd year with it make sure you size it to the tank i always go way to big in this case the big one was to efficient i had to go to the smaller size denitrator
Which Sulphur reactor are you using? And where do you get the media?
 

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I've thought about sulphur denitrators in the past and much of what I've read is they're tricky to tune correctly. Any information on the on you are using and maintenance time to tune and keep optimized would be great!

What is odd is that my bubble coral has really taken off, I got some test hammer corals (tiny 2 headed frag) and it's doing amazing, and a frog spawn of some type that's doing well also. I have a green short tentacled plate coral that's also done very well through the years. What's odd with my Acros is that they no longer grow new branches like they used to. Instead, the existing branches have gotten significantly thicker. They continue to grow skeleton on their existing branches instead of growing new branches.

I don't know how they became programmed to do this. If I had the space to do it, I would want to test the correlation of nitrates and coral skeletal thickness vs. width and height growth. The branches have gotten so thick I can barely frag them by hand anymore. They're strong and healthy, just oddly shaped.

My green plate I've had for 3+ years, has grown bulker in the center, it looks more like a mound than a plate, but is definitely a plate. It didn't grow outward, instead it just bulked up in the center.

My Chalice and montipora grows like weeds. In fact if I don't do something my chalice will pretty much take over my entire tank stinging anything around it.

Coral wise, some of my corals are loving the high nitrates. Fish seem unfased by the nitrates. Even Randy's article posted here indicated nitrates should remain in check for overall reef health.

How do I know when nitrates are detrimental?

As to testing, I only use Hana checkers for alk, Ultra Low Range Hana phosphate tester, and High range Hana nitrate tester.

I do not use the lines on the cuvettes though for measuring water. I have gotten 10 ml syringes that measure 10 ml, and on each cuvette, the water level is slightly above the line. I thoroughly rinse the cuvettes with RO water (and store filled with RO water) then flush with tank water 6-10 times each prior to testing. I thoroughly clean the outside of the glass and test.

The one thing I noticed odd, was the last time I tested Nitrates, I accidently just pushed the button instead of holding it down to get the 7 minute timer. When it did the instant read (With the reagent added) it said 14.5 PPM. When Held the button down and waited the 7 minutes, it read 59.

I have a tough time discerning colors, which is why I use the Hanna testers. When I was testing nitrates using Red Sea Pro tests, I thought my nitrates were under 10 based on color. When they were possibly 40-50.
Why are you trying to lower them? I'm sorry but you just described all the success you're having, not following the reasoning to change anything...
 

saltwaterpicaso

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i have the aquamax i use calcium reactor media and i get the sulfer prills off amazon it takes 2 to 3 weeks to start working you can test the effluint to know where your nitrates are going to settle. when my nitrates were high i would have to clean the glass daily now im weekly the whole tank just runs better now
 
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Treefer32

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I don't know if I call it success or dumb luck! I've reefed a long time, and am trying to understand the science of my "success". Some corals are thriving (those that have adapted to unstable parameters and high nutrients) and anything new I bring it seems to die.

I purchased 3 larger colonies recently, 1 died outright in a month (probably dumb of me to think I could keep an elegance). 1 plate coral that's slowly dying. 1 bubble coral that's doing great. Some of my existing corals just exist, they neither grow, nor recede. The same half inch frag I got a year ago is still a half inch frag. (other acropora)

I would not saying things are doing well. The things used to high nutrients are doing great. Anything else, pretty much whithers away over time (Coral wise). The fish for the most part are doing great. I would like to add more, but not sure I dare to with nutrients so high and PH so low. I keep getting told by my LFS that my PH is dangerously on the edge of a tank crash that anything below 7.6 is toxic to fish. I even bought a new PH probe and calibrated it twice to make sure it was reading correctly.

The reason for the concern, is back to the original question: Is prolonged exposure to high nitrates toxic to living organisms. When Randy's article talks about anything above 10 ppm being high, I guess, do I stop dosing vodka, and remove all the reactors, and let them sky rocket, so that my PH can increase? If there's no reason to care about Nitrates, I'd remove everything but the skimmer, algae scrubber, and reef mat and let nitrates do what they do.
Why are you trying to lower them? I'm sorry but you just described all the success you're having, not following the reasoning to change anything..
 

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Dosing mB7 will increase nitrates. I had mine on a dosing pump daily and my nitrates kept going up all the way to 65. I stopped dosing it and it dropped back to the lower 50s and then down to the 40s a few weeks later. Something to chew on.
 
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Treefer32

Treefer32

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i have the aquamax i use calcium reactor media and i get the sulfer prills off amazon it takes 2 to 3 weeks to start working you can test the effluint to know where your nitrates are going to settle. when my nitrates were high i would have to clean the glass daily now im weekly the whole tank just runs better now
Ha! I have to clean the initial film of algae within hours of thoroughly cleaning the glass! I don't have any algae in my display (other than on the glass) thanks to my algae turf scrubber.
 

saltwaterpicaso

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I don't know if I call it success or dumb luck! I've reefed a long time, and am trying to understand the science of my "success". Some corals are thriving (those that have adapted to unstable parameters and high nutrients) and anything new I bring it seems to die.

I purchased 3 larger colonies recently, 1 died outright in a month (probably dumb of me to think I could keep an elegance). 1 plate coral that's slowly dying. 1 bubble coral that's doing great. Some of my existing corals just exist, they neither grow, nor recede. The same half inch frag I got a year ago is still a half inch frag. (other acropora)

I would not saying things are doing well. The things used to high nutrients are doing great. Anything else, pretty much whithers away over time (Coral wise). The fish for the most part are doing great. I would like to add more, but not sure I dare to with nutrients so high and PH so low. I keep getting told by my LFS that my PH is dangerously on the edge of a tank crash that anything below 7.6 is toxic to fish. I even bought a new PH probe and calibrated it twice to make sure it was reading correctly.

The reason for the concern, is back to the original question: Is prolonged exposure to high nitrates toxic to living organisms. When Randy's article talks about anything above 10 ppm being high, I guess, do I stop dosing vodka, and remove all the reactors, and let them sky rocket, so that my PH can increase? If there's no reason to care about Nitrates, I'd remove everything but the skimmer, algae scrubber, and reef mat and let nitrates do what they do.
i used to try to keep up with all the currant tech trends and my tank was always a mess. now i keep it simple skimmer uv sterilizer sulfer denitrator. i feed pellets and frozen food only. no more dosing of bacteria, no more algea scrubber i swear i only had algea when that thing was running. and the big 3 for dosing tank has been 2 years stable i do monthly water changes 40 percent and im pretty sure i dont even have to do that i went 5 years no water change this way once.
 

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Thank you for explaining your reasoning. So you want to add new different corals and some of those aren't making it. That makes sense. I would however be reluctant to change what is working. There are a few reefers I follow with OLD tanks and they admittedly cannot keep certain corals in their systems (each system being unique). I'll follow to learn from here. Thanks
 
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Treefer32

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i used to try to keep up with all the currant tech trends and my tank was always a mess. now i keep it simple skimmer uv sterilizer sulfer denitrator. i feed pellets and frozen food only. no more dosing of bacteria, no more algea scrubber i swear i only had algea when that thing was running. and the big 3 for dosing tank has been 2 years stable i do monthly water changes 40 percent and im pretty sure i dont even have to do that i went 5 years no water change this way once.
I'm interested in the sulpher denitrator as I've been pondering that for a year now since I went no water changes. Since you mentioned the calcium reactor. Do you fill that with sulpher pills or do you do a combination of calcium and sulpher?

I'm trying to demystify the difficulty of using the reactor vs. the cost. I need things I can set and forget because I'm spending 2-3 hours a week cleaning the glass. Plus testing, and replacing other media, cleaning algae scrubbers, etc. My goal with no water changes was less maintenance, not more. (Which has not worked out so well...). I should probably just bite the bullet and spend $60 a month for salt to do 150 gallon water changes (about 40-50%). I'm spending way more than that between vodka and time cleaning stuff.
 

saltwaterpicaso

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the prills go on the bottom and the media goes above it there is a divider. the media is just a ph buffer the prills lower the ph the media bumps it back up it is very set and forget i just look at the return when i do a filter swap just to make sure there is no salt creep blocking it. once you get it tuned for your tank you wont touch it for years the prills last for years
 

saltwaterpicaso

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i dumped my algea scrubber it was always a mess to clean and i feel you need way way larger than recomended to actually work. i have had several brands. the only time i ever fought algea in the display is when i ran one go figure
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Sulfur denitrators do a good job of removing nitrate, but remember they deplete alkalinity (or raise calcium if they are dissolving sufficient calcium carbonate to offset the alk losses).
 

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