Continuous Top-Off/Water Change

[Stevorino]

Hey All-

I've been reefing in my 120g for two and a half years (wow, I can't believe it has been that long!).

Other than a cyano/dyno crash 6 months in, the tank has been in good or great shape during my husbandry.

I just did a rescaping/coral buy and have been looking back at my time in the hobby. The biggest regret I have so far is not being better about water changes. I'm very feast or famine when it comes to the water changes.

This has led me to a desire to automate the process. Right now I already have an ATO from a basement Brute Trashcan full of RO/DI. But I'm now considering doing an Auto-Water Change where I:

- Daily Pump up ~2 gallons of Saltwater* (instead of my current RO/DI topoff) to my main tank
- Have an overflow in the sump that automatically discharges excess to the side yard (where I have no planting desires)

I theorize that if I dropped the salinity of this water change water just a bit (~1.020 to start?) that it would automatically compensate for evaporation. I'd get a salinity meter for my Apex so I could tweak salinity seasonally/as needed. I'd also position the spillage overflow opposite the input of new water, to maximize efficiency.

I figure this method would:

A) Eliminate need for water changes (aside from occasional siphon-session)
B) If I did a high enough % of system water ( I am currently thinking ~30%/month), reduce the amount I need to dose calc/alk/mag.
C) Increase overall livestock health due to consistency in water


Tell me what I am missing/wrong about!

Added conversation piece - I've wondered how healthy the tank would be if you did a 100% water change each month using this method. For me, that'd cost $500-$600 a year, but if that meant everything in the tank was immaculate 24/7....it could be worth it (or at least getting close!)

 

[CuzzA]

100% will always be best, but given the cost, 30% is perfectly acceptable. In fact that is the volume I am using on my new build.

There's no doubt a slow continuous water changing system is better than shocking your tank with a big change in parameters.

There's a couple things to consider with your idea.

1) You'll want a couple failsafes on the water being pumped to the sump. Dry float switch and a solenoid.

2) Any plumbing open to the outside of your home should have a p trap. Aside from sewage, which also eliminates the smell entering your home, a p trap also prevents critters from access to your home or making a home in your plumbing. So your best bet would be to not glue the p trap and clean it out often. Just like your air conditioners condensation line. Maybe snake the pipe every so often as well.

Other than that, I think it's a fine idea. I love utilitizing gravity in reefing as long as there are a few failsafes in places.

 

[Stevorino]

100% will always be best, but given the cost, 30% is perfectly acceptable. In fact that is the volume I am using on my new build.

There's no doubt a slow continuous water changing system is better than shocking your tank with a big change in parameters.

There's a couple things to consider with your idea.

1) You'll want a couple failsafes on the water being pumped to the sump. Dry float switch and a solenoid.

2) Any plumbing open to the outside of your home should have a p trap. Aside from sewage, which also eliminates the smell entering your home, a p trap also prevents critters from access to your home or making a home in your plumbing. So your best bet would be to not glue the p trap and clean it out often. Just like your air conditioners condensation line. Maybe snake the pipe every so often as well.

Other than that, I think it's a fine idea. I love utilitizing gravity in reefing as long as there are a few failsafes in places.

Thanks CuzzA-

Do you think the lower salinity water will work out to compensate for evaporation or more trouble than it's worth? I'm more or less trying to get out of buying another $300 to run a separate pump and line up... which wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

[danielh]

I would do both and let your apex control how much of which one to use. I bet you can get a second PM2 to measure the salinity in your SW reservoir and then have it mix appropriately all the time.

 

[Rodmad4]

I don't know how much a continous water change can after your salinity but I would think that considering that evaporation doesnt evaporate salt plus you not knowing exactly how much water you evaporate daily, I think your salinity level would end up moving up or down. This would cause more harm than a smaller weekly water change. I do think it's a great idea anyways!

Also wanted to point out something else, these grey colored brute tank we all use to store rodi water seem to leach impurities into the water being held inside them. Specially if we use them to continuously hold our top off or water change water, the contamination becomes quite high. Run this test: test you tds readings out of your rodi and later test the tds for your water upon landing in your brute tank (brute tank has to be previously clean of any saltwater contact). You should find a reading of atleast +.05 higher.

This being said, the cleanest water and freshest imho is that which we produce perhaps straight into a super clean 5 gal bucket, which we mix immediately and later replace in our systems. Any other way you would be introducing more phosphates and more need for gfo.

My personal trick is a straight shot rodi line Into the sump with a float switch for top off at .00 tds. No algae no gfo.

Either way I would like to hear others opinion too. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Stevorino]

I would do both and let your apex control how much of which one to use. I bet you can get a second PM2 to measure the salinity in your SW reservoir and then have it mix appropriately all the time.

I don't know how much a continous water change can after your salinity but I would think that considering that evaporation doesnt evaporate salt plus you not knowing exactly how much water you evaporate daily, I think your salinity level would end up moving up or down. This would cause more harm than a smaller weekly water change. I do think it's a great idea anyways!

Also wanted to point out something else, these grey colored brute tank we all use to store rodi water seem to leach impurities into the water being held inside them. Specially if we use them to continuously hold our top off or water change water, the contamination becomes quite high. Run this test: test you tds readings out of your rodi and later test the tds for your water upon landing in your brute tank (brute tank has to be previously clean of any saltwater contact). You should find a reading of atleast +.05 higher.

This being said, the cleanest water and freshest imho is that which we produce perhaps straight into a super clean 5 gal bucket, which we mix immediately and later replace in our systems. Any other way you would be introducing more phosphates and more need for gfo.

My personal trick is a straight shot rodi line Into the sump with a float switch for top off at .00 tds. No algae no gfo.

Either way I would like to hear others opinion too. Good luck and keep us posted.

T-ing off my RO/DI to my tank for an auto-top off may be the route I go... instead of tracking salinity so religiously on both ends. To run another 20 ft of RO/DI tubing to a redundant check system seems a lot easier in the long run than doing it all in one. Then the only other major piece I'd have to incorporate would be setting up an overflow just above the auto-top off sensor.... hmmm. Thanks for the idea!

If you have any suggestions to replace the BRUTE, I'd be open to looking into replacing it as well.

 

[Stevorino]

I would do both and let your apex control how much of which one to use. I bet you can get a second PM2 to measure the salinity in your SW reservoir and then have it mix appropriately all the time.

Is there a way to have the Apex monitor/control something on a different floor & across the house where I store/mix water? I always assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that I'd need a second APEX to safely handle anything more than 10 feet from the tank.

 

[danielh]

hmmm. I would think you could. Not 100% sure.

 

[monkiboy]

have you considered something easier, like a stenner dual head pump?
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/automatic-water-changes-it-doesnt-get-any-better-then-this.141619/

 

[Stevorino]

hmmm. I would think you could. Not 100% sure.

The only way I've been able to visualize it in my head is that you'd have some kind of extension cord that ran through the walls (probably a fire hazard) from point A to point b>

have you considered something easier, like a stenner dual head pump?
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/automatic-water-changes-it-doesnt-get-any-better-then-this.141619/

ugh... i think i just lost my afternoon / $400....

;) Thanks!!!

 

[monkiboy]

ugh... i think i just lost my afternoon / $400....

;) Thanks!!!

only $290 on a very well made pump, completely serviceable with easy to get parts, and lots of folks using them for AWC. downsides are it's loud (so run it when not home or when it won't be a bother if in a quiet area).

 

[Stevorino]

only $290 on a very well made pump, completely serviceable with easy to get parts, and lots of folks using them for AWC. downsides are it's loud (so run it when not home or when it won't be a bother if in a quiet area).

The only issue I have is that I'm actually trying to do this for 2 tanks in separate locations... So I would have to buy 2 of these to pull it off .... I think?

 

[monkiboy]

The only issue I have is that I'm actually trying to do this for 2 tanks in separate locations... So I would have to buy 2 of these to pull it off .... I think?

you would need one for each separate system unless you want to meddle with solenoids to pull from a different tank's RO line at a programmed time but that might be introducing some issues you'd rather not meddle with.

 

[Stevorino]

you would need one for each separate system unless you want to meddle with solenoids to pull from a different tank's RO line at a programmed time but that might be introducing some issues you'd rather not meddle with.

dang, I'm glad u replied to this thread!!!

I'm not too scared by the idea of having a T and solenoid valves... But that makes me think it may be easier to get the Apex Dos to plug into my Apex along with the solenoids... Any thoughts on that?

 

[monkiboy]

****, I'm glad u replied to this thread!!!

I'm not too scared by the idea of having a T and solenoid valves... But that makes me think it may be easier to get the Apex Dos to plug into my Apex along with the solenoids... Any thoughts on that?

dos is about the same price and has certain advantages. I might be inclined to go that way especially if you aren't have the apex. Neptune has their solenoid valves coming out soon too which you can then plug into your apex as well. it would have be designed just right to avoid mixing and pulling from multiple sources, etc.

 

[Black Pearl]

I'm using the Stenner also exchanges 2 gal a day on a 300 gal Total Volume system. Works great, its located in the garage, tubing run through the attic, so its dead silent to me. Salinity stays right on

 

[Stevorino]

I'm starting to lean back towards the Stenner - for two reasons and I would love to hear the thoughts you guys have as experienced users:

1) I can put the Stenner in the basement where noise is a non-factor. If I did the Apex DOS, I'd have to put it up in the fish tank room and I fear that the pace/time it'd take to do the water changes daily would get old really fast... especially with the wife.

2) In reading reviews, the DOS looks like a great product - but I fear that if ONE thing goes wrong with it and they don't support it, I'm out of luck. The Stenner looks like I could come on here and get help ordering a replacement part or two and be on my merry way.

This would make a solenoid valve setup a little bit more difficult - but the more I think about it, the more I think I'd just order a second Stenner down the road for my second tank should this setup be as magical as I hope. I have a hard time believing that getting 4 Apex-brand Solenoids would cost under $200.... so the savings would be minimal for the added risk of failure/problems.

Once again, would love to hear thoughts - you all have been invaluable!

 

[monkiboy]

I imagine that with the dos there are more parts or more wizardry to go wrong as I've seen with the posts on them with folks that have issues and yes it seems more convoluted for a fix. the stenner is a just a pure mechanical machine and all parts are serviceable and available. I would not meddle with using one stenner for two systems and would just save the funds like you suggest and get a second after you feel comfortable with the first on your other system.

 

[fab]

You can extend an Apex system by using a long Aquabus cable. The entire system can operate with up to 200 ft of Aquabus cabling. That is the limit on the total length of all Aquabus cables added together. I have a single 50' aquabus cable running between my RODI station and my aquarium equipment room.

My DOS peristaltic pumps are located next to my RODI staion, not near my sump tank. I use DOS for ATO and for AWC.

First off, I periodically flush my Spectrapure UHE RODI system automatically. Then when I make RODI water I do it in batches, not continuously. Each time I start the RODI to produce, I divert the first 8-16 fl oz (a drinking glass) to grey water waste to export the initial flow through the filters and the RO membrane as it will generally have an elevated TDS level at first when it starts up. That is why I produce RODI in batches so the percentage of RODI that I discard is very low. I try to produce at least 20 gallons of RODI Each time I turn it on.

My ATO is controlled by water level drop and recovery. I periodically shut down my pumps for about a minute let the water become calm in the sump, measure the water level which by then includes drainage from my display tank and refugium tank and remote DSB tank, add the requisite amount of new RODI water to refill the sump to its 'full' level and restart the pumps when the ATO has completed. This happens automatically every 4 hours .

My AWC is more frequent, virtually continuous, exchanging about 25% per month on average. The normal exchange rate is increased at 10:00 in the morning and decreased at 22:00, sort of synchronizing the water exchange rate to the level of fish activity. Further, I can modify the normal exchange rate percentage when I see a drift in any water parameters that I want to counter by increasing the exchange rate for a while.

Once you operate AWC under a programmable controller's automation you can tune your system in many ways like this and simply monitor its execution and modify its control parameters, even over the internet. I did just that from a Carribean island in May when I changed my reverse daily photosynthesis ratio because I had not gotten around to it before I left on my trip. My aquarium system is in Virginia.

In reading reviews, the DOS looks like a great product - but I fear that if ONE thing goes wrong with it and they don't support it, I'm out of luck.

I have had no such negative experience with Neptune Systems and I have a lot of their probes, modules and devices in my system. I read their forum threads frequently and do not see people abandoned when they have difficulties. On the contrary, what I have seen is excellent tech support complemented by a very active forum of knowledgeable users who pitch in to help each other quickly.

I have not seen such responsive and high quality support anywhere else in the aquarium trade. Much of my current equipment is from Deltec, Ecotech Marine and Neptune Systems. I have had equipment from many other manufacturers over the past several decades on the hobby, most of which by now has been retired to the spare parts bin or tossed directly to the rubbish bin.

I do recommend you put separate and independent ATO and AWC in place. Top-off and water change are two chores that are easily and reliably automated. They have high payoff to you in terms of hours being shifted from drudge work to enjoyment of your aquarium.

 

[choff]

Have you looked at the Genesis water change system? I've been using it for 2 years changing 1 gallon every 4 hours. It was easy to install and has been rock solid never skipping a beat or giving me a second of worry. I'm running it with eheim pumps which are about as reliable as you can get. It's truly set it and forget it (apart from mixing a fresh batch of SW every week to 10 days)

I did not buy their ATO that works In conjunction with it, since I already had a tunze osmolater I just use my apex to turn that on and off on a different cycle than the Genesis.