Controllable deep sand beds - a discussion thread

[Sallstrom]

Hi,

After hijacking a couple of other thread it's time to start a thread instead

This is a thread for ideas for designing sand beds for nutrient control and other purposes, and ways to control them. Feel free to contribute with your ideas, thoughts and experiences!

So let's go! I'll have switch to my computer to find the sketch I did, so I'll be back with one idea for a controllable deep sand bed.

/ David

@Lasse @Jomama @Subsea @Scrubber_steve

 

[Sallstrom]

Here's an idea I want to try more. I've tried it once but put a layer of Siporax in the bottom and it turned out Siporax release a lot of silicate in anaerobic conditions. So I had to stop it and havn't had the time or place to try it again.
The idea is a box inside the sump, with inlet at the bottom. Water is pumped out from the top water layer. This way it's easier to know how much water goes through the sand bed, and it's easy to put pH and redox probes to see the numbers after the sand bed. You could also feed the sand bed with carbon source and regulate the dosage and flow with the pH and redox(maybe). Anyway, not easy to explain in text so I draw this in power point
I call it David's reverse deep sand bed, or just DRDSB

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

OK, thinking about it, I would add circulation pump suction of pump at exit of effluent water, here to let bacteria do its job, first, before disrupting denitrification . Flow of recirculating pump not to important,but fast enough, because it won't be introducing oxygen back at plenum. I would build a trap , where detritus can settle and remove/clean it, if need be, (I know your not planning to, but in case) where detritus settles this would be where water enters before plenum. I'm afraid if detritus in plenum, it will build up and continually change water flow through coral gravel medium. Or build taller plenum, to compensate for detritus build up. And design whole box to remove to clean it in near future. If need be. Next I'll go into controlling flow into and out of box.

Just remember, if I'm correct, for 100 gallon aquarium 2 gallons per hour good flow of effluent going back into aquarium, faster even better.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

The trap kinda like septic tank principal

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Other issues you'll have is, when trying to control water from DT, detritus may effect that. I mention this and other issues soon, because I've experienced it

 

[Sallstrom]

OK, thinking about it, I would add circulation pump suction of pump at exit of effluent water, here to let bacteria do its job, first, before disrupting denitrification . Flow of recirculating pump not to important,but fast enough, because it won't be introducing oxygen back at plenum. I would build a trap , where detritus can settle and remove/clean it, if need be, (I know your not planning to, but in case) where detritus settles this would be where water enters before plenum. I'm afraid if detritus in plenum, it will build up and continually change water flow through coral gravel medium. Or build taller plenum, to compensate for detritus build up. And design whole box to remove to clean it in near future. If need be. Next I'll go into controlling flow into and out of box.

Just remember, if I'm correct, for 100 gallon aquarium 2 gallons per hour good flow of effluent going back into aquarium, faster even better.

Absolutely! Sounds like good idea, easier than filter socks. A settling tanks/chamber, easy to vacuum or with a tap at the bottom just to open.

In my sketch I didn't put in a skimmer or anyting else, but that was just because I'm lazy. So I didn't mean this is a skimmerless system, just focused on the sand bed part

/ David

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I think, use/make an orfice, to control water in to trap. You make orfice small and keep drilling and testing till right size. Also make orfice removable to clean.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Hi,


This is a thread for ideas for designing sand beds for nutrient control and other purposes, and ways to control them. Feel free to contribute with your ideas, thoughts and experiences!


/ David

@Lasse @Jomama @Subsea @Scrubber_steve

This could be an interesting thread David, however, to me it seems DyMiCo has already been here-done this

But you never know, their invention could be improved, perhaps?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

About pump that would return water, an orp controller to activate pump when ready , I would embed pump into media just so some of pump showing(discharge) at exit of media.only if space tight. Check valve may be needed on dicharge.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Guys help me out. I know I'm missing something here.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

This could be an interesting thread David, however, to me it seems DyMiCo has already been here-done this

But you never know, their invention could be improved, perhaps?

There draw back of dymico is cost, and not simple enough. Give it time, when microprocessor fails (with time), won't be fun. Personally. My denitrator on dt, simply 5 gallon bucket, I use clay 1/8" size. water enters top. With pump(dedicated to it) in refugium,pump keeps recirculation , let gravity do its job. Works fine. I use to use sulfur denitrator, but it effects calcium, alkalinity, etc....

 

[Scrubber_steve]

There draw back of dymico is cost, ....

The initial cost is significant Jonama, but they say it's less expensive comparitively with other methods?

Does this take into consideration ongoing costs?

It is a inorganic nutrient export method & a calcium reactor in one.
?

 

[Sallstrom]

This could be an interesting thread David, however, to me it seems DyMiCo has already been here-done this

But you never know, their invention could be improved, perhaps?

I've looked a lot at DiMiCo, sure. But I thought their first setups were a bit too complicated when it comes to flow etc. So the way I sketch it is IMO easier. I don't know how they have designed their small filters, haven't seen any myself yet. My sketch is just for start a discussion, I'm sure we all togher can figure out new ways to use a sand bed.

If you want to buy a DiMiCo instead, go right ahead. I rather do it myself

 

[Scrubber_steve]

If you want to buy a DiMiCo instead, go right ahead. I rather do it myself

No thanks; as i said DiMiCo seems a complicated way to go about things.
I'll stick with my algae scrubber & dosing AquaForest major-minor- & trace elements

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Here's an idea I want to try more. I've tried it once but put a layer of Siporax in the bottom and it turned out Siporax release a lot of silicate in anaerobic conditions. So I had to stop it and havn't had the time or place to try it again.
The idea is a box inside the sump, with inlet at the bottom. Water is pumped out from the top water layer. This way it's easier to know how much water goes through the sand bed, and it's easy to put pH and redox probes to see the numbers after the sand bed. You could also feed the sand bed with carbon source and regulate the dosage and flow with the pH and redox(maybe). Anyway, not easy to explain in text so I draw this in power point
I call it David's reverse deep sand bed, or just DRDSB

I think I'll call my DSB, GOLIATH DEEP SAND BED.
I know @Lasse, will comment soon, so trying as quick as I can to add my two cents.
One more thing, got to control flow into DRDSB. The same orp controller for discharge pump returning effluent, will activate, gravity solinoid valve, connected to water entering trap. Return water might have also orfice on it. Same size as water entering. My 2 cents.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I think I'll call my DSB, GOLIATH DEEP SAND BED.
I know @Lasse, will comment soon, so trying as quick as I can to add my two cents.
One more thing, got to control flow into DRDSB. The same orp controller for discharge pump returning effluent, will activate, gravity solinoid valve, connected to water entering trap. Return water might have also orfice on it. Same size as water entering. My 2 cents.

I think detritis is an issue with a system such as this. Both possibly good & bad. Lasse commented in Subseas thread about DOC being the end product of anaerobic function. I'd like Lasse to comment more on this.

 

[Lasse]

Detritus - for me it means organic debris that´s been accumulated somewhere. Normally - this is the base for bacterial breakdown - at the first - aerobic - but when the bacteria population is large enough, it becomes anaerobic bacteria breakdown instead.

The problem with organic debris can be solved in two major pathways -

1) providing degradation with additional oxygen, hence maintaining an aerobic breakdown process. Activated sludge treatment and biofilter is example of this This processes are fast but cost external energy.
2) providing degradation (digestion) in absence of oxygen - an anaerobic breakdown process. Bio gas reactors is one example of this. Doing this in an otherwise oxygen-rich environment create problems. You must transform the oxygen rich incoming water to anoxic water as fast as possible. In this case - a lot of detritus consuming incoming oxygen is necessary. To speed this up - you can dose one of the limited factors in heterotroph bacterial growth in aquaria - namely DOC. Or you can have a large enough detritus pool doing the same. In the long run - anaerobic digestion is slow but you get energy out from it.

Hence - IMO - detritus is not a problem in anaerobic breakdown processes (as David´s construction) - is a resource instead.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Here's what I personally hate of electronic design, when a surge happens, eventually effects electronics. Not everyone prepares to prevent them. When a black out/brown out happens, electronics possibly short out. And eventually do short out. Especially in Residential homes.

 

[Sallstrom]

I think I'll call my DSB, GOLIATH DEEP SAND BED.
I know @Lasse, will comment soon, so trying as quick as I can to add my two cents.
One more thing, got to control flow into DRDSB. The same orp controller for discharge pump returning effluent, will activate, gravity solinoid valve, connected to water entering trap. Return water might have also orfice on it. Same size as water entering. My 2 cents.

I would like to keep it as simple as possible. To be sure no water or carbon source goes the wrong way and gets out through the inlet, I would try to find the right flow and size of filter so I didn't needed a recirculation pump for example. Not sure if that would work, but thats where I would start.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Orfice to control flow probably simplest. I think, next perisitic pump? I'm guessing