Controllers…. What do they actually do for me?

[mjw011689]

I’m researching controllers and it seems there’s probably 3 common readily available/reliable controllers. Obviously the apex, GHL, and hydros. Not trying to debate which is best or which to get (yet).

help me understand what makes these things necessary (poor word choice, but at least what makes them beneficial). It seems they all come with temp probe, and ph probes. Cool, my ink bird has temp probes, and you can purchase stand alone ph meters. What am I missing? I know they can control lighting schedules and pump schedules, but most lights and pumps now are programmable by themselves. I’ve got AI lights and pumps, all controlled through their app. Which would make connecting them to a controller pointless, right?

it seems like most of the functions they serve has to do with power on/off, and monitoring a couple parameters (outside of the trident obviously). I regularly test my water since I work from home, so a trident isn’t overly justifiable for me. But as far as the rest of the controller, what would I actually be getting out of it? I’ve watched all kinds of videos and stuff and I WANT to see the need for one (partly because I just like having cool gear). Or is it just the fact that I can pull up the app from anywhere and see what my temps/ph/sg are?

 

[Saltyreef]

I’m researching controllers and it seems there’s probably 3 common readily available/reliable controllers. Obviously the apex, GHL, and hydros. Not trying to debate which is best or which to get (yet).

help me understand what makes these things necessary (poor word choice, but at least what makes them beneficial). It seems they all come with temp probe, and ph probes. Cool, my ink bird has temp probes, and you can purchase stand alone ph meters. What am I missing? I know they can control lighting schedules and pump schedules, but most lights and pumps now are programmable by themselves. I’ve got AI lights and pumps, all controlled through their app. Which would make connecting them to a controller pointless, right?

it seems like most of the functions they serve has to do with power on/off, and monitoring a couple parameters (outside of the trident obviously). I regularly test my water since I work from home, so a trident isn’t overly justifiable for me. But as far as the rest of the controller, what would I actually be getting out of it? I’ve watched all kinds of videos and stuff and I WANT to see the need for one (partly because I just like having cool gear). Or is it just the fact that I can pull up the app from anywhere and see what my temps/ph/sg are?

Yep. Simply convenience.

Now on the other hand, a reliable temp controller is an absolute must!!!

 

[Quietman]

So this is one of the hot button topics, along with sand vs bare bottom and if water changes are really necessary.

You can absolutely manage a tank without a controller and do it safely and reliably.

I use my controller mainly for monitoring and alarms as well as back up devices. I don't put any primary functionality on the controller. My return pump in right off main power as are one of my heaters. But I do find I sleep a bit easier and enjoy being able to see temp/ph/orp (orp came with it - not really useful for me) and track those. I think this is why there's basically a monitoring and some reduced function Apex now.

To each his own...some love the idea of having everything and more coded up. I find that very impressive as well but that's them and not me. So if you're not into all that, most equipment today comes with controllers and remote web acess and there's no one here ever going to say a Ranco temp controller is a bad choice...Inkbird has failed me though as an FYI.

 

[Snoopy 67]

If you travel there are cameras to watch, alerts if something goes wrong and graphs you can look at.
I just use my son that I live with.

 

[nothing_fancy]

So, my experience is only with apex, which I have only really scratched the surface on it. I don't use it for lights or pumps either but further down the road I might if I do a build involving DC pumps. That being said, if you decided to use a 2 part or kalk or anything else thats auto dosed it would be beneficial to have a controller that monitoring kh cal and mag on a fixed schedule and communicating that to your dose pumps in some way. With apex I don't use the DOS system rather I have some pump heads that simply turn off and on deepening on dKh levels...couple other advantages in regards to the energy bars is the ability to create scenarios where groups of things turn on and off, say a feeding duration or something like that. Its nice to have a reference and then manual testing can happen on occasion. Lastly the sensors to me have been invaluable, the optical level sensors, I have a bunch of them doing what most people do, turning ato pumps off to prevent overflows, turning returns off etc.

 

[Crustaceon]

It's like having all of your stand alone monitoring equipment in an all-in-one package which may or may not be a good thing.

 

[mjw011689]

So, my experience is only with apex, which I have only really scratched the surface on it. I don't use it for lights or pumps either but further down the road I might if I do a build involving DC pumps. That being said, if you decided to use a 2 part or kalk or anything else thats auto dosed it would be beneficial to have a controller that monitoring kh cal and mag on a fixed schedule and communicating that to your dose pumps in some way. With apex I don't use the DOS system rather I have some pump heads that simply turn off and on deepening on dKh levels...couple other advantages in regards to the energy bars is the ability to create scenarios where groups of things turn on and off, say a feeding duration or something like that. Its nice to have a reference and then manual testing can happen on occasion. Lastly the sensors to me have been invaluable, the optical level sensors, I have a bunch of them doing what most people do, turning ato pumps off to prevent overflows, turning returns off etc.

Thanks for the fast replies everyone. As far as the dosing thing, I hadn’t considered that. Are there probes for cal, mag, and alk that are reliable enough to automate a dosing schedule? Such as cal drops below X threshold and it will automatically dose?

don’t get me wrong, I’d love to be able to pull up all that data while I’m away, but outside of ato and leak detection stuff and temp, im not seeing much that would potentially save a tank if it alerted me. And for that matter, the ATO I’m planning to run does all 3 of those things, so there’s that, and I BELIEVE can also act as a heater controller. Could be wrong on that one, but I’ll check out the ranco heater controller nonetheless.

 

[mjw011689]

It's like having all of your stand alone monitoring equipment in an all-in-one package which may or may not be a good thing.

Yeah I was thinking about that too. If the apex or whatever goes offline for whatever reason, well, you’re pretty much sol anyways I’d imagine. While it would be a pain to have to log into multiple apps and connect multiple devices, I’d think you’re less likely to lose everything at once

 

[Crustaceon]

Yeah I was thinking about that too. If the apex or whatever goes offline for whatever reason, well, you’re pretty much sol anyways I’d imagine. While it would be a pain to have to log into multiple apps and connect multiple devices, I’d think you’re less likely to lose everything at once

As was the case with my reef keeper. I don't run an all-in-one style controller anymore for that reason.

 

[bushdoc]

Years ago or shall I say decade, when Apex was the King, you could control most of the stuff with it. Now lots of powerheads, pumps, lights and other peripherals have their own proprietary apps to control them. I use Apex now for heater/ chiller control and temp display, pH display and some other minor tasks. I would go for scaled down version of Apex, like Apex Junior if I was suppose to buy a new one, unless you want to use DOS or other, mostly crappy and unhelpful hardware.

 

[jda]

The probes are the weak links in the chain. The temp probes are hobby grade compared to something like a Ranco. They are expensive timers. You can do some monitoring and alerting, but since the probes are unreliable over time, you have to hand check every one of the alerts anyway. I would not trust a "controller" to make any decisions unless you replace and calibrate the probes every few months and replace them on a regular schedule.

Ranco is industrial grade, more wattage and only like $105. I would use one of these even with an Apex or GHL or whatever. It is truly as close to a lifetime purchase as one gets in this hobby.

The best reason that I have ever seen to have one is that a person just wants/loves the tech and wants to mess around with it. I personally don't need another butt to wipe around here. I use a calcium reactor for supplement which needs no controller.

I wrote a really good controller on an old Mac Mini. I stopped using it. I have written many pages on this. You should be able to search my username, j2ee, ruby or bash and find them, if you care.

 

[nothing_fancy]

Thanks for the fast replies everyone. As far as the dosing thing, I hadn’t considered that. Are there probes for cal, mag, and alk that are reliable enough to automate a dosing schedule? Such as cal drops below X threshold and it will automatically dose?

don’t get me wrong, I’d love to be able to pull up all that data while I’m away, but outside of ato and leak detection stuff and temp, im not seeing much that would potentially save a tank if it alerted me. And for that matter, the ATO I’m planning to run does all 3 of those things, so there’s that, and I BELIEVE can also act as a heater controller. Could be wrong on that one, but I’ll check out the ranco heater controller nonetheless.

They are relatively reliable although most will find minor discrepancies between say trident and hanna checkers. My trident is usually .6ppm lower than hanna. Its more about consistency and then those probes are identified in the code to tell the outlets to do what you want them to do. The coding is flexible. The probes are there to monitor but moreso to be used to communicate functions to the rest of the system. Its great that an ato itself can have sensors or float switches, the apex sensors are valuable for redundancy. So for instance if a return line became clogged and your sump was starting to get high, a photo sensors thats set to turn that pump off when it the sensor is closed would prevent an overflow. Deeper still a backup pump can be set to turn on at that event. It just opens up a lot of opportunities that you normally wouldn't have otherwise. Still, a system can and will run great without any automation at all.

 

[Saltyreef]

The probes are the weak links in the chain. The temp probes are hobby grade compared to something like a Ranco. They are expensive timers. You can do some monitoring and alerting, but since the probes are unreliable over time, you have to hand check every one of the alerts anyway. I would not trust a "controller" to make any decisions unless you replace and calibrate the probes every few months and replace them on a regular schedule.

Ranco is industrial grade, more wattage and only like $105. I would use one of these even with an Apex or GHL or whatever. It is truly as close to a lifetime purchase as one gets in this hobby.

The best reason that I have ever seen to have one is that a person just wants/loves the tech and wants to mess around with it. I personally don't need another butt to wipe around here. I use a calcium reactor for supplement which needs no controller.

I wrote a really good controller on an old Mac Mini. I stopped using it. I have written many pages on this. You should be able to search my username, j2ee, ruby or bash and find them, if you care.

Loved your CA-RX writeup and I dont even use one.

If I did, I would 100% be following your insructions.

 

[Tamberav]

I’m researching controllers and it seems there’s probably 3 common readily available/reliable controllers. Obviously the apex, GHL, and hydros. Not trying to debate which is best or which to get (yet).

help me understand what makes these things necessary (poor word choice, but at least what makes them beneficial). It seems they all come with temp probe, and ph probes. Cool, my ink bird has temp probes, and you can purchase stand alone ph meters. What am I missing? I know they can control lighting schedules and pump schedules, but most lights and pumps now are programmable by themselves. I’ve got AI lights and pumps, all controlled through their app. Which would make connecting them to a controller pointless, right?

it seems like most of the functions they serve has to do with power on/off, and monitoring a couple parameters (outside of the trident obviously). I regularly test my water since I work from home, so a trident isn’t overly justifiable for me. But as far as the rest of the controller, what would I actually be getting out of it? I’ve watched all kinds of videos and stuff and I WANT to see the need for one (partly because I just like having cool gear). Or is it just the fact that I can pull up the app from anywhere and see what my temps/ph/sg are?

You are not missing anything that is needed, some people just want all controllability under one login/app. However if Apex goes down, there goes everything. You could tinker and add a bunch of float switches and flood warning sensors and get into Trident testing.

I use Apex and it is just convenience.

It quit working once which meant I had to go dig out a different power bar while it was fixed.

 

[mjw011689]

Thanks for all the info again. At this point, it seems the only reason I’d want one is just to have another piece of tech, but no real reason to own one for me personally. It seems my money would be better spent on other equipment.

I have the Neptune ato and run it as a standalone one one of my tanks. It does exactly as advertised but the build quality was pretty sub par IMO. And I’ve heard that from numerous sources. Luckily mine only needed slight modification/repair out of the box to be able to work as designed.

for my current build I don’t think I’ll be running a controller. I’ll look into the ranco heater controller, I’ll stick with the ATO I was planning on (the new Red Sea ato), and I’ll be sticking with lights/pumps that will be controllable on their own (probably AI). As for skimmer, I don’t see where having that set up on a controller could help anything since that’s either on or off. At best the skimmer level sensors could come into play to prevent it from overflowing I suppose.

 

[Greybeard]

Ok... I'll bite.

Here's what my Apex does for me:
1) Alerts me via email if my temp or pH varies outside a given range
2) Shuts off power to my temp controller and alerts me if temp exceeds my setpoint
3) Shuts off incoming RODI water if any of my high level sensors are tripped (float valve failure), and alerts me that there's an issue via email.
4) Runs my kalkwasser reactor (stir time, pump time, refill schedule, etc)
5) Runs general timers for lights, etc.
6) Synchronizes variable flow pumps, giving me excellent water movement
7) Auto feeds pellet foods 4x per day
8) Allows me to see graphs over time on pH, Temp, Alk, Calk, and Mag.
9) Alerts me if power usage varies on the outlet where my return pump is connected, indicating some sort of blockage or failure
10) Alerts me to water on the floor under my sump

There's probably more... but that's all I can come up with off the top of my head.

Yeah, it's just a convenience... until it's not. Last year, my heater failed. I knew there was a problem when the temp was only one degree below my setpoint. When would I have known otherwise? Who knows. Likely when my critters alerted me by looking bad. What if it had failed ON, like so many heaters have in the past? Would I have known before my tank was fish soup?

I ran a reef tank for decades without a controller. I will never do so again. It's not just ease and convenience, it's safety.

 

[nothing_fancy]

Ok... I'll bite.

Here's what my Apex does for me:
1) Alerts me via email if my temp or pH varies outside a given range
2) Shuts off power to my temp controller and alerts me if temp exceeds my setpoint
3) Shuts off incoming RODI water if any of my high level sensors are tripped (float valve failure), and alerts me that there's an issue via email.
4) Runs my kalkwasser reactor (stir time, pump time, refill schedule, etc)
5) Runs general timers for lights, etc.
6) Synchronizes variable flow pumps, giving me excellent water movement
7) Auto feeds pellet foods 4x per day
8) Allows me to see graphs over time on pH, Temp, Alk, Calk, and Mag.
9) Alerts me if power usage varies on the outlet where my return pump is connected, indicating some sort of blockage or failure
10) Alerts me to water on the floor under my sump

There's probably more... but that's all I can come up with off the top of my head.

Yeah, it's just a convenience... until it's not. Last year, my heater failed. I knew there was a problem when the temp was only one degree below my setpoint. When would I have known otherwise? Who knows. Likely when my critters alerted me by looking bad. What if it had failed ON, like so many heaters have in the past? Would I have known before my tank was fish soup?

I ran a reef tank for decades without a controller. I will never do so again. It's not just ease and convenience, it's safety.

Ya, RE: the metrics. If you're into the chemistry being able to track the data long term is a fun thing and super useful if you've got some sort of goal or if you notice something off with your livestock, check the metrics going back a few weeks and you might find some enlightening stuff. Of course you can do that with pen and paper but being able to compare parameters against each other in the app makes things a lot easier.

 

[Saltyreef]

Thanks for all the info again. At this point, it seems the only reason I’d want one is just to have another piece of tech, but no real reason to own one for me personally. It seems my money would be better spent on other equipment.

I have the Neptune ato and run it as a standalone one one of my tanks. It does exactly as advertised but the build quality was pretty sub par IMO. And I’ve heard that from numerous sources. Luckily mine only needed slight modification/repair out of the box to be able to work as designed.

for my current build I don’t think I’ll be running a controller. I’ll look into the ranco heater controller, I’ll stick with the ATO I was planning on (the new Red Sea ato), and I’ll be sticking with lights/pumps that will be controllable on their own (probably AI). As for skimmer, I don’t see where having that set up on a controller could help anything since that’s either on or off. At best the skimmer level sensors could come into play to prevent it from overflowing I suppose.

And your skimmer level sensor can be taken care of with a standalone too. Its good for the skimmate cup.

Auto aqua brand.

 

[Quietman]

My biggest concern in having a controller do everything was that it becomes a single source of failure for the whole works. And relying on it to report on itself (or just trust that I catch it isn't sending me heartbeats) is too much risk for me. I much prefer multiple individual controllers to prevent one thing from crashing it all. (I even have two outlets each with own breaker for power). But I really do like the reporting/alarm/warning keeping an eye on everything and having some back up stuff plugged in but not in use that I can remotely operate if needed.