Copper treatment

[4FordFamily]

You're using Cupramine these days? I don't think I knew that. I remember you and Kyle being big proponents of Copper Power. Did something change?

No I’m not using it these days. I am actually done quarantining. I don’t have time for it anymore lol.

I’d still go copper power if I was, however.

 

[Reef Racket]

i guess what im asking is... while the tank is fallow and the 30 days or longer off copper has completed... Should i keep thr QT at therapeutic levels intill the whole 76 days is up in the DT? or should i slowly bring copper down in QT? Also, once complete do the fish have to be acclimated down from copper in general or can i just take them from copper treated water and right to DT ?? (as long as temp and salinity match of course)

@4FordFamily does this make sense? I removed the fish from my display tank which has been stable for a while... so can I run copper for the full 76 days in the QT while the DT is fallow? Or should I lower copper in the QT after 30?
Also, do I have to slowly drop copper levels and acclimate the fish to non-copper water? Or can I just put them back in the DT from the QT which still has copper? (Of course having salinity and temp match)

 

[4FordFamily]

@4FordFamily does this make sense? I removed the fish from my display tank which has been stable for a while... so can I run copper for the full 76 days in the QT while the DT is fallow? Or should I lower copper in the QT after 30?
Also, do I have to slowly drop copper levels and acclimate the fish to non-copper water? Or can I just put them back in the DT from the QT which still has copper? (Of course having salinity and temp match)

You can remove copper after 30 days in the QT. Then just observe the fish to ensure that it was successful. At the end of 76 days, put the fish in that QT back in the DT.

I acclimate all fish to new systems, but my method involves 3 small cups of water in a bucket 5-10 mins apart. Far less scientific, but it works well for me.

I hope this helps.

 

[Reef Racket]

You can remove copper after 30 days in the QT. Then just observe the fish to ensure that it was successful. At the end of 76 days, put the fish in that QT back in the DT.

I acclimate all fish to new systems, but my method involves 3 small cups of water in a bucket 5-10 mins apart. Far less scientific, but it works well for me.

I hope this helps.

thank you so much!!! is it necessary to remove the copper or can they stay in there for longer? and just to be sure, a fast drop in copper will not hurt the fish?

 

[4FordFamily]

thank you so much!!! is it necessary to remove the copper or can they stay in there for longer? and just to be sure, a fast drop in copper will not hurt the fish?

I would increase copper over the course of a couple of days, and I would not keep fish in it for longer than the needed time -- unless you're unsure if the level of copper has been "therapeutic" for the entire duration. If you test copper every day or every other day, and it hasn't dropped below your desired therapeutic amount, I'd say go 30 days and then do a 100% water change to remove the copper. Copper is somewhat tough on fish, but a necessary evil.

 

[Aquatican]

Only have access to Cupramine, but am on the fence as to whether to use it for a Halichoeres iridis and Cirrhilabrus jordani currently in my QT (day 21).

Both arrived healthy and were eating from day 1. Gave them both a Formalin bath prior to entering QT and upon initial and continuous inspections seem disease free. I have prophylactically treated for bacterial infections (Furon2) and internal and external parasites (General cure + GC and Focus mixed food for 12 days) .

Would you advise a course of Curpramine in this case or a hypo treatment? As you can see, I haven't specifically targeted ich in my regime, but do I need to, should I?

 

[Reef Racket]

I would increase copper over the course of a couple of days, and I would not keep fish in it for longer than the needed time -- unless you're unsure if the level of copper has been "therapeutic" for the entire duration. If you test copper every day or every other day, and it hasn't dropped below your desired therapeutic amount, I'd say go 30 days and then do a 100% water change to remove the copper. Copper is somewhat tough on fish, but a necessary evil.

okay thats what i figured... so no need to bring it down slowly once treatment is done right? you dont have to "wean" them off... you can just remove the copper?

 

[ReefBeta]

okay thats what i figured... so no need to bring it down slowly once treatment is done right? you dont have to "wean" them off... you can just remove the copper?

Yes, you can remove all copper in an instance.

 

[ReefBeta]

Only have access to Cupramine, but am on the fence as to whether to use it for a Halichoeres iridis and Cirrhilabrus jordani currently in my QT (day 21).

Both arrived healthy and were eating from day 1. Gave them both a Formalin bath prior to entering QT and upon initial and continuous inspections seem disease free. I have prophylactically treated for bacterial infections (Furon2) and internal and external parasites (General cure + GC and Focus mixed food for 12 days) .

Would you advise a course of Curpramine in this case or a hypo treatment? As you can see, I haven't specifically targeted ich in my regime, but do I need to, should I?

Wrasses have mixed record in copper treatment. Your safest bet is to use Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites! instead.

 

[ssunthar]

Copper treatment

What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum). There is some anecdotal evidence that copper will suppress symptoms of Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum; however it is unlikely to completely eradicate either.

How To Treat – First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Below is a list of the most commonly available copper products, their therapeutic ranges and compatible copper test kit(s):

• Cuprion (0.20 ppm): Seachem or Salifert copper test kit
• Cupramine (0.5 ppm): Seachem or Salifert copper test kit
• Coppersafe (1.5 – 2.0 ppm): API copper test kit
• Kordon Copper Aid (1.5 – 2.0 ppm): API copper test kit (Avoid this brand of copper; it’s too watered down)
• Copper Power (1.5 – 2.0 ppm): API copper test kit

In addition to the aforementioned hobbyist grade test kits, the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) is a highly accurate “professional grade” test kit capable of reading all forms of copper: https://hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

** (I personally use Copper Power + Hanna copper colorimeter, and treat at 2.0 ppm.) **​

How long to use copper on a fish depends upon whether you have 1 or 2 quarantine tanks to work with. If just 1 QT, treat for 30 consecutive days. The reason this approach takes so long is because copper only targets the “free swimming stage”. While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of Marine Ich have a prolonged life cycle. Indeed, even 30 days may not be sufficient in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

A therapeutic level must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock restarts. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; these should be avoided with copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, some feel it is wise to raise the copper level very slowly (over 5-7 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hour label directions. However, I have had the best success dropping fish into QTs predosed with Copper Power @ 1.0ppm, and then take 48 hours to reach minimum therapeutic (1.5 ppm). I then take another 48 hours to achieve 2.0 ppm, which is my “sweet spot” for using chelated copper. These increases in copper are done very gradually, dosing the QT multiple times per day.

So, what if I have TWO quarantine tanks to work with? Well, in that case you only need to treat with copper for 14 DAYS and then transfer the fish into QT#2. Provided the following:

1. Copper level must be at FULL THERAPEUTIC for the entire 14 days (very important).
2. Nothing from QT#1 can be reused to setup QT#2. Transfer just the fish; nothing else!
3. The two QTs must be at least 10 feet apart, to avoid any possibility of aerosol transmission. Also be careful to avoid cross contamination via wet hands, feeding apparatus, anything wet really…
4. Do not lower the copper level prior to transferring. QT#2 should be copper free, so you can observe to ensure treatment was successful. You can, however, treat with other medications (e.g. Prazipro if you need to deworm) in QT#2.

The above strategy works because after 14 days any ich or velvet trophonts should have dropped off the fish. The presence of copper in the water shields your fish from reinfection from any unhatched tomonts (which release free swimmers). It’s these unhatched tomonts you want to transfer your fish away from, because some ich tomonts can take up to 72 days to release all of their free swimmers. Thus, understand that QT#1 is still possibly contaminated with ich and/or velvet tomonts (plus any other diseases the fish was carrying) even after all the fish have been transferred out. Which is why sterilizing QT#1 in-between batches of fish is a good idea.

Pros – Readily available.

Cons/Side Effects – Appetite suppression and lethargy are common side effects. If a fish stops eating completely, perform water changes (to lower the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. (Note: Anytime you lower the copper level below therapeutic, the 30 day treatment clock begins anew once the copper is raised back up.)

Hi Humblefish,

My QT is only about 3ft away from my DT... while im strictly using separate tools for these tanks... i am now concerned about the 'aerosol transmission' while running copper in QT. How likely I am possibly exposed to this risk? How do I identify if such transmission is already taking place?

A side question: what is the tolerance level of inverts towards (amount of) copper in water in general (as well as the amount transmitted by air)?

Thanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Humblefish,

My QT is only about 3ft away from my DT... while im strictly using separate tools for these tanks... i am now concerned about the 'aerosol transmission' while running copper in QT. How likely I am possibly exposed to this risk? How do I identify if such transmission is already taking place?

A side question: what is the tolerance level of inverts towards (amount of) copper in water in general (as well as the amount transmitted by air)?

Thanks.

Here is an article I posted recently on "biosecurity", There is no fixed answer as to how far tanks need to be apart to eliminate aerosol transmission - it varies by disease type, air currents, how the tanks are covered, etc.

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

Copper toxicity to invertebrates varies greatly by species. Shrimp and crabs may handle close to a full dose of some types of copper, while octopus will die at very slight levels.

The amount of copper transmitted via aerosol is minimal to effectively zero.

Jay

 

[ssunthar]

Here is an article I posted recently on "biosecurity", There is no fixed answer as to how far tanks need to be apart to eliminate aerosol transmission - it varies by disease type, air currents, how the tanks are covered, etc.

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

Copper toxicity to invertebrates varies greatly by species. Shrimp and crabs may handle close to a full dose of some types of copper, while octopus will die at very slight levels.

The amount of copper transmitted via aerosol is minimal to effectively zero.

Jay

Thank you very much Jay... can take a deep breath now.

May i ask about the negative impact of copper on other inverts like corals and snails? Thanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you very much Jay... can take a deep breath now.

May i ask about the negative impact of copper on other inverts like corals and snails? Thanks.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - Copper is much more toxic to coral and snails than with crabs and shrimps...

Jay

 

[ssunthar]

Sorry, I should have been clearer - Copper is much more toxic to coral and snails than with crabs and shrimps...

Jay

Thanks for the clarification Jay.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

It’s interesting that octopuses cannot tolerate copper and yet, if I’m not mistaken, their blood is copper based vs iron based like ours?!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It’s interesting that octopuses cannot tolerate copper and yet, if I’m not mistaken, their blood is copper based vs iron based like ours?!

Yes, that is interesting. I’ve always wondered if they would have issues if kept in copper free water, but I suspect they get their copper from their diet, like we do iron.
Jay

 

[vinsonj]

I'm on my first week of going fallow for velvet....lost half the fish and the other half are in a QT tank with copper power. Can somone confirm the fallow duration? I've seen 76 days for ich, and 42 days for velvet, just want to confirm...thanks!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm on my first week of going fallow for velvet....lost half the fish and the other half are in a QT tank with copper power. Can somone confirm the fallow duration? I've seen 76 days for ich, and 42 days for velvet, just want to confirm...thanks!

Velvet gets misdiagnosed a lot. Noga says it could be as short as a month for velvet. I don’t think that is long enough.
Fallow periods are NOT set in stone. Lots of variables, the effects of which cannot always be evaluated. Then, risk aversion comes into play; 76 days is the longest period borne out by any studies. 45 days usually works at temperatures above 81 f. ….but how much risk are you comfortable with?
Jay