Coral Reef Die Off

[Azurel]

We have here at home in this country some of the most restrictive eviornment policies anywhere on the planet. Yes (they) say we produce 25% of the world pollution. But what about the other 75% that nothing is being done about. Have any of you ever been to Europe, eastern block countries where there is little enviornment policy. Where there are large factories that put crap inot that air with out any filtering of any sort. California is the standard here....What enviornment policies are placed in California usually make through that whole country eventully. That is why there are California standards placed on all car that are manufactured here in the us. These standard although not perfect due reduce some of the over all pollution in the country.

There is no connection between the religion and conservation.....I find slightly offensive to say that if your religious that your point of veiw will be use it all up before the rapture. There are those that preach that but when you look at the mass it is, will be a very small percentage of those that follow Christ...There is some on the extream right that have gone to far but, to say that the "christian right" doesn't care about the planet or in conserving our resources isn't apporpriate either. That is what the secular progressives like Sen. Kennedy,Sen.Clinton, Sen.Pilosi want you to think. The Democratic party is not that of the JFK,Roosevelt,Truman democrates of yester year. That Grand party is long dead and has been replaced with Socialist like the ones named.

 

[Azurel]

That fine don't give them tax brakes, You willing to pay $6-7 dollars a gallon? It's the same thing in the farming industry, it's called subsidizing. They governemt does this to reduce the overall cost to the people. The price per barrel is down about $23 dollars of it's highs in the summer. We are also starting to use less overall now that the travel months have past.The price of oil today right now is just over $60 at it's highs during the summer it was almost $80. That's a big differance, there have also been interuptions in supply and still is down in the Gulf....all of this has an effect on the price. Do you honsetly think that The President Can call somebody up and say"reduce the price" just for elections? The price has been going down since August.

Then you also have a limited amount of oil you can refine because ther arn't enough refineries to refine it at the rate that is needed. When we use 18 million barrel of oil a week at it's peak, and the refineries can only refine 16 million a week you have a shortage of refining ability. Now when the consumption decreased more to the abilites of the refinerys then you will see a increase of capacity and the price will drop. It's like you have a pipe that can flow 800g minute, then you atach a hose that can only do 400g a minute but at the 400g a minute what ever is coming out is being used up as fast as it comes out what's left? Nothing. No extra...Now one of only two things can happen, you can reduce what is being used or increase the flow to what is needed. The only weay to do that is reduce consumption or increase flow....We as a country as a mass are not ready to reduce consumption which is our own fault. There has been policies past that will not allow us to increase refining so we are our own worst enemy as far as that goes....

 

[Azurel]

I don't normally get in to this kinda stuff.......Good discussion guy's....
I hope we all can have a point of veiw and let it at that....That's why I don't normally get into it with friend cause I hate to see hard feeling take place....With that...I'm off to to other threads..

 

[Azurel]

"than wondering when the next episode of dancing with celebrities is on"

No you really ticked me off!

LOL...I couldn't agree more.....

 

[Azurel]

It's like President R.Reagan said "you can get alot done when you don't care about who gets credit" I think that is the base of the seperation of the political leaders we have today. The funny thing is that they are both getting credit for not doing much at all......Nope here at club-zoa...no matter what side of the fence you fall your a Club-zoaian....I wouldn't let the polictical BS ruin what we have here......

 

[Voltekker]

So it's no coincidence that gas prices have dropped from around $3/gallon down to just over $2/gallon right before election time, even though the price of oil has stayed the same? There are only two explanations for this. The american people are being ***** by big oil with the help of this "conservative" congress, or these other countries suddenly quit using all this oil? I think it's pretty easy to see what's happening. (got another explanation?) Also, do you know how many billions of dollars the US taxpayers give to the oil companies in corperate welfare? Why are we giving them all these taxbreaks when they are seing these kind of record profits? They should take that money and put it into renewable energy research.

It's kind of sad how these people always ***** about welfare and how people need to just get a job, but then they give billions and billions in welfare to the oil companies who don't need it. Now that's conservative.

The price of light sweet crude has not stayed the same. You really need to do some research before you post things like that. If you just google oil prices dropping you will find many many articles about the price of energy going down. It also has to do with the fact that we had a very inactive hurricane season and gulf plants where not affected. You should also research the ammount of surplus oil the united states has in reserves now Its more then double what it was a year ago this time. In addition gas prices usually get a little lower after the summer, people travel alot less during the winter and we have less demand. Dont be blind this has noting to do with elections.

I started this message before my lunch break so i was not aware of the other posts.

 

[twon8]

come on coralnutz, it's "the google"

and i am in favor of getting the government out of all subsidies, they artificially reduce prices and distort teh market. and most farm subsidies don't go to small farmers, but large corporate farms. i remember a few years ago a pitcher for the ny mets, kevin appier, owned a farm, and the government was paying him 10g+ a year to NOT farm on his land. that is complete bull

 

[revhtree]

Did someone say rapture??

 

[twon8]

and saying we would pay more for food is inaccurate, the elmination of subsidies would lead to overall lower prices as the market would reallocate resources to areas that are economically viable. free trade is a good thing and would lead to a better world as a whole.

 

[Voltekker]

Its not just the price that has dropped but also the demand. You couple price of oil dropping plus demand dropping the causes it to drop more than that 15% number.

They are posting profits that they make all around the world and im greatful that our goverment subisidizes the prices of gas. I have traveled abroad, my last trip was to mexico before that i was in the domincan republic and before that i was in spain. They all had higher gas prices then us, the worst one was probably spain.

To further elborate on these big oil companies. They are going to do what ever they want the fact that the consumer catches a break because we have a good goverment is awsome. Another thing thats putting us at the mercy of "big oil" is that we sit on some of the largest oil reserves in the world but we cant touch them. I live in miami and if its going to be safe for the enviroment which with todays technology it should be they should be able to drill off the coast of florida.

I think somone touched on alternative energy sources. I wanted to mention that this new E( ethanol ) based fuel they have now is actually worse for the enviroment then gasoline.

 

[Voltekker]

and saying we would pay more for food is inaccurate, the elmination of subsidies would lead to overall lower prices as the market would reallocate resources to areas that are economically viable. free trade is a good thing and would lead to a better world as a whole.

Yea but how long is it going to take for that re adjustment to take place and how many jobs will be lost because of it. Its not going to happen over night and alot of people are going to suffer during the transition especially those who are not well off.

Im editing this post and adding some more.

Im actually pretty frustrated with this whole thing. Im a registered democrat and i have some very liberal views. I recently got pretty bored of all the bush bashing and decided to do some more in depth research on our president. He gets bashed for not being the brightest crayon in the box but he is not dumb by any means. He scored a 1206 on his sats and went to an ivy league school where he recieved mediocre grades. Everyone assumes that when he did these things he was putting 100% into to it. Our president at a young age was not known as a young studious individual he was a party animal. As far as hit Sat's go he scored low on his verbal portion and high on his math. You should also research bush's first attempt to run for an office. He lost the race because the people saw him as a "brainiac" and he didnt have a connection with the average american.

Personally i think part of his personality is an act. He knows what appeals to the masses and thats what he does best.

 

[twon8]

Yea but how long is it going to take for that re adjustment to take place and how many jobs will be lost because of it. Its not going to happen over night and alot of people are going to suffer during the transition especially those who are not well off.

Im editing this post and adding some more.

what is the alternative? a slowly deterioting market segment that is ultimately doomed to collapse.. ie the us auto makers. us steel industry, us electronics makers.

negative consequences are certain with either course, i prefer to let the market work it out. government has and will continue to do a poor job.

people were so upset when zenith, the last us manufacturer of tv's moved to mexico. i feel it worked out allright.

economies of scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

 

[twon8]

you can't get a 1206 on your sat's, it is a 10 point scale.

and i agree that corn based ethanol is crap, but as is with high fructose corn syrup, there are people who bank on growing corn we don't need, so they force us to buy it

why is coca cola better in mexico?
because they use real sugar there.
why don't we?
because high fructose corn syrup is cheaper here
why?
because the closest large scale producer of sugar is cuba and we have sugar embargos and quotas, which artificially raise the price. at least the big sugar growers along the gulf coast are happy and rich.;-(

 

[Voltekker]

Your right demand in general has not gone down but when you compare the demand of gas during the summer months and then going into the winter months. Winter months have always shown a slow down.

Maybe you can score a 1206 anymore but when he took it you could. His scores where 566 verbal and 640 math. The average americans Sat score is like a 1000 and all you need to join mensa is a 1300. He isnt that dumb.
Edit.
Sorry for thread jacking also.

 

[twon8]

Yea but how long is it going to take for that re adjustment to take place and how many jobs will be lost because of it. Its not going to happen over night and alot of people are going to suffer during the transition especially those who are not well off.

Im editing this post and adding some more.

Im actually pretty frustrated with this whole thing. Im a registered democrat and i have some very liberal views. I recently got pretty bored of all the bush bashing and decided to do some more in depth research on our president. He gets bashed for not being the brightest crayon in the box but he is not dumb by any means. He scored a 1206 on his sats and went to an ivy league school where he recieved mediocre grades. Everyone assumes that when he did these things he was putting 100% into to it. Our president at a young age was not known as a young studious individual he was a party animal. As far as hit Sat's go he scored low on his verbal portion and high on his math. You should also research bush's first attempt to run for an office. He lost the race because the people saw him as a "brainiac" and he didnt have a connection with the average american.

Personally i think part of his personality is an act. He knows what appeals to the masses and thats what he does best.

i could care less what he acts or sounds like, i care about what has happened on his watch:

a balloning deficit,(weren't republican's supposed to be the party of small govt? ha)

the medicare drug plan (whoopy, more help for drug companies, the ceo of anthem makes $40,000 a day)

a debacle in iraq, and a resurgence of the taliban in afganistan,

wasting his time talking about a court decision in nj that i in virginia could care less about yet is becoming an issue in my state's senatorial election. im not voting for macacawitz, i tell you that much.

i voted for bush reluctantly in 04 after a bit of flip flopping in the voting booth, harry brown in 00, so im not a liberal, im a laissez faire libertarian, but what he has done at least warrants some accountability, which i see none of.

tell me what they are doing today in iraq that is different from a year ago that will make one year from now better than today?

economics is all about efficiency, and the 300 billion spent in iraq appears to be wasted. no matter how rich a country is, waste will lead to downfall eventually if it is not curbed.

 

[twon8]

and i attribute his "faith" on pat robertson winning the 88 south carolina primary, that is when rove realized the power of the religous right to mobilize voters. I don't think bush is dumb, misadvised and overinsulated perhaps, but not dumb. he is a horrible public speaker, but so am i, so maybe ill be president one day. i did beat him on the sat's, so ive got that going for me, which is nice...

 

[Voltekker]

lol i love beer. Ill take a stella artios i think thats how you spell it. In the end i dont vote right or left i vote for the canidate that has the political agenda thats right for me.

 

[jessiesgrrl]

tell me what they are doing today in iraq that is different from a year ago that will make one year from now better than today?
QUOTE]


I actually agree also with this entire post, but just want to throw this out there about this one little bit:

A few years ago in Iraq, we went against the UN and did something big. I don't agree with circumventing the UN and making the US look like bunch of impatient aggressive goobers, but I do agree that Hussien had to go- and it should have happened as a global effort after he gassed the Kurds. Chemical warfare against the economically disadvantaged is worse than everything else imaginable save nukes, and takes an manical egomanic to order.

Are we doing anything wildly cool in Iraq at the moment? Maybe- we are keeping it from disentegrating into another unknown monster's hands- Look at all the new wannabe leaders killed since we got Saddam, and drove Osama underground. It is only as quiet as it is because we have made it this way overseas at the moment- they now know how traumatic it was when we got hit at home. They know now that Americans never batted an eye at our Embassies being attacked- we only noticed when they caused a mass casualty at home. You had better believe they would love to do so again given the privacy to plan and the funds, and our disinterest. The warlords in Somalia are a great example of wannabe leaders left to their own... Mogadishu belongs to the cruelest person who can strike terror into the hearts of the most people, until someone under him kills him in order to take his place. Only Mogadishu violence in contained in Somalia really- no bearing on our soil...

After we disrupted the governments in Iraq and Afghanistan, we need to know that the person in charge is elected by the people there who will keep him in office after we leave... I don't like Bush, but I do believe the radical militant Islamist movement is a much more real threat to us now than ever before in the past, because we have now fought back. They live for the perpetuation of their violence.

I want my friends home who are there now. And as for the friends who have come home- some are in one piece and some not. Those who are in one piece are so thankful for it that it isn't funny. Those who aren't, soothe themselves that these past few years that they served (including this past year), they helped Iraq stay focused on it's own problems, and not on the USA on our own soil. So yeah, I think we are doing something that makes tomorrow better and different. I hope I never live to see the day where there is nothing we CAN do...

I don't always support the politics, but I do support the troops.


Laurie

 

[jessiesgrrl]

Did someone say rapture??

ROTFLMAO!

I like the Left Behind series... I hope I am not ever Left Behind...


Laurie

 

[twon8]

but when sadaam was gassing kurds we were the ones giving him the weapons. and since the gulf war the kurds were autonomous and no longer being threatened by him. that aside, we have learned he didn't have any wmd's, a position the un weapons inspectors held as we ignored them.

how many iraqi;s have died since we took over? ive heard figures ranging from 30k to 650k, so ill say at least 100k, probably a conservative estimate. How do you weigh those lives against those saddam would have killed? i imagine he wouldn't have brought about near teh number of deaths as the insurgence has. and its not just the deaths, but who is being killed: the educated upper classes (ie non religous fanatics) are the ones being targeted, leaving a poorer nation, both in money, culture and intelligence.

however bad he was, and i agree he was a bad person, he was a secular leader in the middle east, and imo we need all of those we can find. as we can see, his country was a hotbed of religous fanaticism, and now that we broke it... it;s our mess, and given the plan to this point from our administration i cannot be confident that they know how to succeed as the civil war spirals downward.

if iraq becomes iran, and it appears to be headed further down the road to an islamist state every day, not only will the iraq war have been a mistake, I will judge the bush presidency as a colossal failure. i support our tropps wholeheartedly, but establishing a democracy is not something a military can do. One big gripe i have is our govt. using private military contractors paid $750 a day(blackwater, kbr, haliburton..etc.) to do jobs normally done by our military, such as security. ( when private contractors are KIA the military doesn't have to release that info or count them in the military deaths) there are lots of questionable things going on over there, and no one in power is asking about them.
How much reconstruction has been done? I remember a few years ago hearing about schools being built and road and the like, but nothing since then. I want to know what has been done and what is being done, but all i get is "stay the course"

if you have never heard eisenhower's militaryindustrialcomplex speech, you should check it out; a republican president and general, he gave our nation a warning that we have let pass us by.

our invasion of iraq is the ultimate recruiting tool for osama and the like, and as you said laurie, they will not be content to attack us over there forever. our security will never be 100%; when someone is willing to kill themselves in the comission of an attack, physical defenses are penetrable. this is a war of ideas, and should have been fought as such.