Corals Keep Dying

[Wandering Albatross]

What lighting fixture? I am sorry, am missing that information in your post? If so I sincerely apologize.
You're not providing enough of the necessary basics, we are just speculating.

2 Nicrew gen 2 200s, spaced evenly at roughly 10" above the surface, rocks are roughly 14" from the surface. 2 hour ramp on and off, hours before and after peak run 75/25-30 blues to everything else ratio, 4 hour peak, peak runs 100% blues/violet, and 40% white/red/green. Starts ramping on at 5:30am, ramps completely down by 6pm.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

If I were a betting man, Id put money on an ICP test showing what's wrong. On paper to me, it looks like you're doing everything properly. But the lack of coralline, inability to maintain corals, inability to grow macro algae, and the prevalence of dinos / cyano points to something being way off.

How are the inverts and the pod population doing?

CUC inverts do fine, eat, sift, breed, molt, no problem. Pods have many predators so they may be low, but my mandarins all eat frozen and don't pick much anymore. Could be pods are that low, or that they're just well fed and lazy. I've considered amphipods as well, but wasn't sure if they'd do anything before becoming a wrasse or butterfly snack.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

It would be great to see a pic of the tank to see what it looks like as well as what your dinos look like. If it were me, water changes as mentioned above and start dealing with the dinos asap. Dinos will destroy tank inhabitants, especially coral, in my experience.

Do you have a microscope? Looking at the dinos under a scope will let you know the type and what you need to do in order to get rid of them.

I don't have a microscope. The annoying thing with the dinos is like they hide in plain sight. They seem totally beat back for weeks, nothing on rocks or sand, then if I put something new in the tank, they pop out of nowhere and cover it. Usually this means a new frag. They also latch on when I freshly scrub a powerhead.

 

[Ryan - Serious Reefs]

PAR ranges are from the corners of the sand to the top of the rocks. These lights were meant to be strong, but running at peak with 100% blue/violet and 40% everything else, it still barely reaches 280ish at the top of the rocks, directly under the light. I'd rather lower the other colors for a slightly more blue look, but it drops my par. I've also heard mixed reviews on whites being damaging at high levels.

So, if browning can mean too much or not enough, and moving it up or down does nothing, how do I know which it is?

There is very little chance that 280 PAR at the midpoint of the tank is inadequate for LPS corals so your chance of too low is not materially existent. I would try cutting it close to half and see how the corals respond.

In general, 50–150 PAR is a widely accepted sweet spot for LPS. It is also the range most of my peers who grow these corals commercially tend to run. There are always exceptions, but it makes sense to start with the range that has the highest success rate before experimenting outside of it.

Reducing the PAR may also help slow down some of the nuisance slime growth you are seeing in the tank.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

You have multiple systems running correct, which tank are asking about? Did I miss the brand of fixture?
Providing an image can sometimes reveal an issue you may not have considered.

This is the 150g, the first tank. Light type x2 Nicrew gen 2 200. Tank image added to thread for reference.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

There is very little chance that 280 PAR at the midpoint of the tank is inadequate for LPS corals so your chance of too low is not materially existent. I would try cutting it close to half and see how the corals respond.

In general, 50–150 PAR is a widely accepted sweet spot for LPS. It is also the range most of my peers who grow these corals commercially tend to run. There are always exceptions, but it makes sense to start with the range that has the highest success rate before experimenting outside of it.

Reducing the PAR may also help slow down some of the nuisance slime growth you are seeing in the tank.

The thing is, 280 is the highest I can get it right now without blasting every color on max, so I've been using that top space to try sps, and the lps down lower in the tank, in the 100 range areas, to allow for a learning curve. They just don't seem to like anywhere they go.

My pulsing xenia sits in the far corner on an island at nearly sand level, last I checked in the 70 range, and of the few corals that are left, he's done the best.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

This is how I would handle it in my own tank.

Most of the time when I see something like this it ends up being a water issue. Something in the water is irritating or toxic to the corals. In your case it appears to be affecting both the corals and the algae. Rather than chasing my tail trying to test for every possible contaminant, I usually go straight to the end game solution: remove the water I am concerned about and replace it with new water. Many times that solves the issue outright, and if it does not, it still rules out a huge number of potential causes and makes finding the real one much easier.

I would start with a 30 percent water change. If things look better later that day or by the next day, that is a strong indicator that something in the water needs to be removed. In that case, I would follow up with a 90 percent water change if I have enough heated saltwater ready. If not, I would do four more 30 percent water changes. That sequence will remove roughly 82 percent of what is currently in the tank.

You can use this calculator to see the effect that different sizes and numbers of water changes have on contaminants: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/EffectOfWaterChanges.php

Since you mentioned dinos, that is another possible cause. If the first 30 percent water change does not produce any improvement, that would probably be the next path I would investigate.

Lighting can also cause similar issues if it is too intense 250 is certainly on the high end for a LPS tank. In an LPS tank I would turn the lights down to around 150 peak PAR. That is more than enough for most LPS and can even be on the high side for some. If things improve after lowering the light, that may be the culprit.

Finally, severely underfed systems can sometimes show symptoms like this and benefit from amino acid dosing. However, based on the nutrient levels you mentioned, that seems like a less likely cause.

It's meant to be a mixed reef, I've been trying to get higher par in the upper parts of the tank for sps.

It has been recommended to me before to not use any fine coral foods/aminos while dealing with dinos, as it'll just feed them. The small water changes I have done have only boosted dino numbers. I agree that there is most likely something in the water, but even if a water change helps in the short term, I still need to figure out what the issue was, and how to keep it for happening again.

 

[Uncle99]

It's meant to be a mixed reef, I've been trying to get higher par in the upper parts of the tank for sps.

It has been recommended to me before to not use any fine coral foods/aminos while dealing with dinos, as it'll just feed them. The small water changes I have done have only boosted dino numbers. I agree that there is most likely something in the water, but even if a water change helps in the short term, I still need to figure out what the issue was, and how to keep it for happening again.

I see some pest type stuff on your rocks which may indicate an instability in some parameters. Unstable chemistry is the chief cause of poor coral growth and muted colours.

Your parameters are fine. However, how much flux do they experience over 24 hours?

Pest stuff loves flux and are very quick at taking real estate.

Just want to rule that condition out.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I see some pest type stuff on your rocks which may indicate an instability in some parameters. Unstable chemistry is the chief cause of poor coral growth and muted colours.

Your parameters are fine. However, how much flux do they experience over 24 hours?

Pest stuff loves flux and are very quick at taking real estate.

Just want to rule that condition out.

The only flux will be in nutrients at this point, by trying to bring N and P down. Everything else moves very little. Which pest are you referring to? Cyano, dinos, aiptasia, or are you seeing something else that I'm not?

 

[CHSUB]

My tank runs around 15-20 ppm nitrate and .1 phosphate. The corals in my SPS heavy tank are growing great with no issues. Your assessment of what's the problem has been disproven many times. In fact alot of the set ups that are TOTM run higher nutrients. There is something else going on. I do agree the lack of maintenance is a problem though.

You did not read my comment and are just confirming your bias without understanding. My comment is concerning untest elements of “filth” or eutrophication. No3 is an end product, a closed system could be high in organic matter and have low or high no3. Corals don’t do well in environments with high organic matter, I’m wondering if his high no3 could be an indicator of eutrophication?

 

[vetteguy53081]

It lets me know it’s glass scrape day when it starts to look cloudy from. The back walls get less attention and cyano does like to hang there sometimes. When I ramped up the flow it did blow some of my shallower sand areas, I have ordered some slightly larger grain for that particular area.

Here’s that one weird spot of coralline. It’s spreading slowly and is a nice pink color, just wish there was more of it. It’s in a lower random flow area with lower light. Middle of the tank.

Here’s a close up of what most of the rock looks like when clean, it’s got a calcified feel to it and is more green under whiter lights. Shows like this most on the tops where the flow is strong.

Tank looks to have excess algae and possible dino. How are you testing the water?
Didnt see what type of light you are using and some other reasons for coral decline is change in salinity, temperature and salt mixes. Additionally, Elevated phosphate, light and even new light and elevated alkalinity levels will be a higher risk to coral. Other minor factors will be low Dissolved oxygen, new corals especially leathers (which emit a toxin known as Terpenes), false test kit readings and newly added rock can alter chemistry.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Tank looks to have excess algae and possible dino. How are you testing the water?
Didnt see what type of light you are using and some other reasons for coral decline is change in salinity, temperature and salt mixes. Additionally, Elevated phosphate, light and even new light and elevated alkalinity levels will be a higher risk to coral. Other minor factors will be low Dissolved oxygen, new corals especially leathers (which emit a toxin known as Terpenes), false test kit readings and newly added rock can alter chemistry.

That unfortunately doesn't help much, that's quite the list of things to try to look at, with no one standing out. I've been looking at everything I can think of, hence coming here for extra input. I use red sea test kits and red sea coral pro salt.

Where do you see excess algae with the exception of the light dusting on the front glass and the short turf patches on the back walls down low? The only algae on the rocks that isn't film-thickness is a couple patches of bubble, which don't bother me. Perhaps the picture is bad...

 

[vetteguy53081]

That unfortunately doesn't help much, that's quite the list of things to try to look at, with no one standing out. I've been looking at everything I can think of, hence coming here for extra input. I use red sea test kits and red sea coral pro salt.

Where do you see excess algae with the exception of the light dusting on the front glass and the short turf patches on the back walls down low? The only algae on the rocks that isn't film-thickness is a couple patches of bubble, which don't bother me. Perhaps the picture is bad...

Appears as such with the dark lighting. What lights are you using ??
As for list, I mentioned possibilities which you have to determine

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Appears as such with the dark lighting. What lights are you using ??
As for list, I mentioned possibilities which you have to determine

Nicrew gen 2 200w LEDs, x2

 

[vetteguy53081]

Nicrew gen 2 200w LEDs, x2

Light has mixed reviews but I hear good about it. I would confirm PAR reading with a PAR meter

 

[Bbio]

Nitrate 10-25ppm (appears to lean high

If either cyano or Dinos try choking a coral or otherwise annoy me, I’ll blow off the rocks with a turkey baster. Cyano sometimes clings to parts of the pumps and I’ll scrub those with a toothbrush as needed.

but they just get coated in Dinos

My take: when I see no3 that high, from vagueness could be 50 ppm? I think how does one get no3 that high? My reef tanks never even get to single digits on no3. There are a giant list of potential pollutants that we don’t test for that become no3. Organic pollutants being the most prevalent and are directly consumed by dinos and cyano. Corals grow in clean water, algae and cyano in polluted water. High fish population and heavy feeding requires excellent maintenance and export. Residual high no3 levels are the end product of an eutrophication of your reef system.

Really? My tank is 5 months old and I’ve never had any nitrates. All my coral are doing fine, but I have a zoa colony that has been in the tank 4 months and closed up for a month. Everything else is fine including the 2 zoa colonies directly next to it. My phos is also all over the place. Between 0.04-0.15. People keep telling me to dose nitrates and it may balance my phos and help the zoa.

 

[CHSUB]

Really? My tank is 5 months old and I’ve never had any nitrates. All my coral are doing fine, but I have a zoa colony that has been in the tank 4 months and closed up for a month. Everything else is fine including the 2 zoa colonies directly next to it. My phos is also all over the place. Between 0.04-0.15. People keep telling me to dose nitrates and it may balance my phos and help the zoa.

Again I’m not suggesting it is the no3 themselves causing the problem. In the OP’s tank with a giant fish load and feeding; untestable organic matter often refer to as an eutrophic environment can cause serious damage to corals and produce conditions of explosive algae growth. This may or may not show up as high no3.

 

[Tahoe61]

In the OP’s tank with a giant fish load and feeding;

^^^

I would be surprised if anyone adding those fish types in that time period didn't have water quality issues.
Garden eels and the multiple mandarins alone pose a complicated feeding strategy.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

^^^

I would be surprised if anyone adding those fish types in that time period didn't have water quality issues.
Garden eels and the multiple mandarins alone pose a complicated feeding strategy.

Yeah they don’t help, but they’re too cute to give up.

 

[Reef Puncher]

your tank is not matured yet. if your seeing dino and cyano that means there is not enough beneficial bacteria or microorganisms, corraline algae, etc to keep them at bay. run an icp. right after icp, do a water change. But some Dr.Tims or some other bacteria in there. turn lights way down. in your tank you could run 75-150 par and it would be just fine.