Crazy high phosphates…6.3ppm

[Jackal799]

So I recently set up an innovative marine 50int. Been up for a month. Cycled with a mix of dry/live rock quickly. However, I used some sand from a buddy that I rinsed until clear and I think that may be the source of my phosphate issue. Fortunately I don’t have any coral in the tank but I do have 2 clowns, a small tomini tang, a leopard wrasse and a blenny. With phosphates that high I decided to dose lanthanum chloride slowly into a 5 micron filter sock and had no side effects. However, my phosphates didn’t budge. My question is if I should keep trying to dose the lanthanum chloride to bring the phosphates down or say screw it and remove the sand. I did test my source water and it was zero. I do have the option to temporarily move the fish to a qt and just take everything out.

 

[Cthulukelele]

How confident are you in that phosphate reading? If you're running an essentially completely new tank with just a touch of sand from another tank, that reading seems impossible without the reading on the other person's tank being an ACTUALLY impossibly high phosphate reading outside running a tank of literal organic sludge

 

[Jackal799]

How confident are you in that phosphate reading? If you're running an essentially completely new tank with just a touch of sand from another tank, that reading seems impossible without the reading on the other person's tank being an ACTUALLY impossibly high phosphate reading outside running a tank of literal organic sludge

Thanks for the reply. So I tested 3 times via Hanna ULM. It maxed out the tester so I had to dilute it to get the reading. Having said that, the rock I used was live from a lfs and the “dry rock” I used was sitting in a vat of saltwater I had for like 6 months. The sand I got is about 1.5 inches deep and it was filthy before I rinsed it. I’ll test one more time and report back. I’ll use 9ml of clean saltwater from my bin and 1ml of tank water. Result will multiply by 10

 

[Jackal799]

Thanks for the reply. So I tested 3 times via Hanna ULM. It maxed out the tester so I had to dilute it to get the reading. Having said that, the rock I used was live from a lfs and the “dry rock” I used was sitting in a vat of saltwater I had for like 6 months. The sand I got is about 1.5 inches deep and it was filthy before I rinsed it. I’ll test one more time and report back. I’ll use 9ml of clean saltwater from my bin and 1ml of tank water. Result will multiply by 10

K test came back at .39 and I checked it twice. My bath was definitely off on the first few readings of 6.3 but still, that puts me at a phosphate of almost 4 on a new tank. I doubt feeding can attribute to a level that high but I dunno. Maybe I’ll keep using LC slowly over the next week and go from there. I’d just hate to keep chasing this phosphate issue if it’s gonna leach for a year.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe I’ll keep using LC slowly over the next week and go from there. I’d just hate to keep chasing this phosphate issue if it’s gonna leach for a year.

If, in fact, the phosphate is that high, the options would seem to be live with it, continue some sort of binder, or replace the calcium carbonate materials in the tank. For most situations, I'd personally suggest continued binding of it for values over 2 ppm.

 

[Jackal799]

If, in fact, the phosphate is that high, the options would seem to be live with it, continue some sort of binder, or replace the calcium carbonate materials in the tank. For most situations, I'd personally suggest continued binding of it for values over 2 ppm.

Thanks Randy. I appreciate your response. I’m going to take your advice and keep trying to bind it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Let us know how things go! :)

 

[Jackal799]

You're welcome.

Let us know how things go! :)

Absolutely. I’ll post my progress to hopefully help someone else a long the way. In hind sight I should have known better and tested the phosphates coming off of the material outside of the tank prior to starting it up. Oh well, I’ll keep ya updated. Plan is to dose 7ml of phosphate e over 4 hours tonight (dose based off of LC calculator). If no side effects with the livestock will probably try to push it towards the high end of safe dose range but I’ll wait a week and see how my levels are responding.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Absolutely. I’ll post my progress to hopefully help someone else a long the way. In hind sight I should have known better and tested the phosphates coming off of the material outside of the tank prior to starting it up. Oh well, I’ll keep ya updated. Plan is to dose 7ml of phosphate e over 4 hours tonight (dose based off of LC calculator). If no side effects with the livestock will probably try to push it towards the high end of safe dose range but I’ll wait a week and see how my levels are responding.

My typical recommendation is to go very slow, but with no corals that's less of a concern. I don't think fish care much about phosphate, though be wary of the lanthanum effects.

 

[Jackal799]

My typical recommendation is to go very slow, but with no corals that's less of a concern. I don't think fish care much about phosphate, though be wary of the lanthanum effects.

Will do. With my phosphates being so hi I figure dripping the diluted LC slowly into a 5 micron filter sock should prevent any unused LC making it up to the display. Also has to make it through the skimmer. Max daily dose for 50 gallons is about 12ML. I’ll push to 7ml but am reluctant to go higher than that. Only fish I was concerned with was the tomini tang but he’s been completely fine thus far.

 

[Jackal799]

Update. Still pushing 7ml and I’m now down to 2.5ppm. In 48 hours I have gone from 3.9 to 2.5 with zero impacts to the livestock. Again, I have no coral so I’m being a little more aggressive. I’ll be switching to rowaphos when my phosphates hit 1.0. Really impressed with LC but at this point I just want to add to what others have said stress to use with caution, dilute it with RO, and slow drip into a 5 micron filter sock. When I take the sock out it is loaded with precipitate and I’d hate to see what that would do to livestock.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. When I take the sock out it is loaded with precipitate and I’d hate to see what that would do to livestock.

Just my opinion, but I don't think we know whether lanthanum sometimes hurts tangs due to particulates in the water, or dissolved lanthanum. Folks add other particulates without apparent issues (calcium carbonate as coral snow), and I am not that convinced that the toxicity of particulates in tank water can depend so strongly on the chemical nature of the particle.

 

[Jackal799]

Just my opinion, but I don't think we know whether lanthanum sometimes hurts tangs due to particulates in the water, or dissolved lanthanum. Folks add other particulates without apparent issues (calcium carbonate as coral snow), and I am not that convinced that the toxicity of particulates in tank water can depend so strongly on the chemical nature of the particle.

Yeah I think either way using a filter to export the particulates is the way to go but after doing hours and hours of research I think that maybe the the issue with tangs comes from unused lanthanum chloride but I have no way to prove that. Outside of organic and inorganic chemistry in college I don’t have a lot of experience with chemistry but the basic chemistry with LC use does make sense to me. Where I get thrown off is reports of tang deaths but then I see melev dosing right into the tank with no issues. Would be awesome if someone could pin point the tang issue. I’m dosing 7ml in 1 liter of RODI over about 4 hours so maybe that combined with the sock prevents unused LC from making it to the display. Who knows? As always, thanks for your response and all that you do to contribute to the hobby!

 

[Jackal799]

Update. Still chasing the phosphates at 2.5ppm. I’ve upped the dose of LC to 10ML. I’m assuming this is my wall until I’ve gotten the bound up phosphates out of the sand. Will keep it here for a week. Im no longer dripping the LC but am still dosing into the filter sock slowly. I’ve got a 10ML syringe and am adding 1 ml every 10 minutes. Fish are still doing well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Update. Still chasing the phosphates at 2.5ppm. I’ve upped the dose of LC to 10ML. I’m assuming this is my wall until I’ve gotten the bound up phosphates out of the sand. Will keep it here for a week. Im no longer dripping the LC but am still dosing into the filter sock slowly. I’ve got a 10ML syringe and am adding 1 ml every 10 minutes. Fish are still doing well.

Any apparent change in anything else in the tank?

 

[Jackal799]

Any apparent change in anything else in the tank?

Not that I’ve observed or tested. So far so good. My nitrates have been coming down so there is likely some biological process consuming them. No visible algae in the tank but coraline is starting to pop up. I’m just holding my breath because I’m waiting for some nasty algae to start growing with the phosphates this high but we’ll see. My plan for the next week is to keep dosing LC and will keep an eye on the phosphates/nitrates. Don’t want the nitrates to bottom out.

 

[Jackal799]

So tonight’s phosphate test revealed .53ppm. I’m stopping LC for now and switching over to GFO. In my limited experience I can say it was a success. Took me from 3.9 to .53. The volume of LC was accurate to the calculator and relatively predictable. If I have a hard time maintaining phosphates with GFO I would definitely go back to LC.

 

[Ziggy17]

Well, I learned something today. I wouldn’t have thought phosphate could get that high in a natural way. I’ve read about folks accidentally dosing PO4 with pumps or knocking a bottle over into the tank, but never without that kind of help.

 

[Jackal799]

Well, I learned something today. I wouldn’t have thought phosphate could get that high in a natural way. I’ve read about folks accidentally dosing PO4 with pumps or knocking a bottle over into the tank, but never without that kind of help.

Yup. It was 3.9 at its highest. Nuts. This is a young tank but old sand, some live rock, and some “dry” that I had cooking in saltwater for a while but didn’t do any water changes on. I still don’t know for sure what my culprit was but I’m leaning towards the sand. LC did a phenomenal job brining it down with no damage to livestock. However, if I had coral I would have gone much slower. GFO is running now so I’ll use that to bring it to .1-.2 and I’ll kick it there for a while. Definitely don’t want to bottom it out as it’ll be a ticking Dino bomb