Cyano going to cause me to shut down my tank

[rkpetersen]

Ok so I finally got my results back from ATI ICP testing

Wow, those are really problematic! Have to get your nitrate down, but your phosphorus is already dangerously low. All biological methods of nitrate reduction are going to have less than maximal results while simultaneously driving phosphorus right back to zero (without supplemention). What you're doing will work in the long run, but it's a tricky balancing act to get there and one false move could cause either coral bleaching/death or recurrent algae growth. In addition to what you're doing, I think I'd be doing frequent small water changes at this point. A series of water changes will give you maximum absolute numerical benefit for reducing nitrate because your nitrate is high, while simultaneously having much less important effect on your phosphate level which is already low.

Aluminum is almost certainly from phosguard or equivalent, as you say. I wouldn't dose any other elements right now, with those numbers. For example i think that iodine is ok; any detectable iodine is enough, and it's easy to overdose with supplements. I also wouldn't dose iron now; it encourages algae growth and rapidly vanishes from the water column anyway.

 

[Potatohead]

Yesterday I looked at the tank and really, it looks the best it has in a long while. I'm not out of the woods but my corals are looking better, some acros are even growing again, the cyano is really getting knocked back, and the rocks are as clean as ever thanks to less cyano and a couple tuxedo urchins I added a few weeks ago who destroy algae like Joey Chestnut on hot dogs. I wish I got some long ago.

I am dosing 5ml nopox and about .06 ppm phosphate per day. Still phosphate is a little lower than I would like, but I figure once my nitrate gets a bit lower (it's about 25 as of a few days ago) I can start to feed a bit more which will help.

I am still doing ~12% water changes every week. I go on vacation for a couple weeks shortly, but the tank is mostly on autopilot at this point since everything is on a doser.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Yesterday I looked at the tank and really, it looks the best it has in a long while. I'm not out of the woods but my corals are looking better, some acros are even growing again, the cyano is really getting knocked back, and the rocks are as clean as ever thanks to less cyano and a couple tuxedo urchins I added a few weeks ago who destroy algae like Joey Chestnut on hot dogs. I wish I got some long ago.

I am dosing 5ml nopox and about .06 ppm phosphate per day. Still phosphate is a little lower than I would like, but I figure once my nitrate gets a bit lower (it's about 25 as of a few days ago) I can start to feed a bit more which will help.

I am still doing ~12% water changes every week. I go on vacation for a couple weeks shortly, but the tank is mostly on autopilot at this point since everything is on a doser.

As I do not know the composition of NOPOX, what kind of carbohydrate and how much of it is in 5mlI , one can not estimate the quantity of protein which may be produced and the quantity of phosphate needed. Nopox removes nothing from the system, all depends of how much of the protein production is removed by the skimmer, which may be estimated to be max 35%. This means that finally most part of the produced biomass will be recycled and mineralized, when consumed produce NH3 etc. As not much more as the daily nitrate production can effectively be removed daily, despite low feeding, carbohydrate supplements and a 12% water change weekly , means that the denitrification capacity of the system is much to low. About the nitrate level the solution is very simple.

 

[Sallstrom]

Yesterday I looked at the tank and really, it looks the best it has in a long while. I'm not out of the woods but my corals are looking better, some acros are even growing again, the cyano is really getting knocked back, and the rocks are as clean as ever thanks to less cyano and a couple tuxedo urchins I added a few weeks ago who destroy algae like Joey Chestnut on hot dogs. I wish I got some long ago.

I am dosing 5ml nopox and about .06 ppm phosphate per day. Still phosphate is a little lower than I would like, but I figure once my nitrate gets a bit lower (it's about 25 as of a few days ago) I can start to feed a bit more which will help.

I am still doing ~12% water changes every week. I go on vacation for a couple weeks shortly, but the tank is mostly on autopilot at this point since everything is on a doser.

Glad everything is going in the right direction!
We do the same treatment at work on a 26 000L reef tank, dosing carbon source and phosphate to lower the nitrate. Just watch out so neither of those dosing containers are emptied. Our carbon source was emptied and the phosphate went up directly to higher levels than we wanted

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Glad everything is going in the right direction!
We do the same treatment at work on a 26 000L reef tank, dosing carbon source and phosphate to lower the nitrate. Just watch out so neither of those dosing containers are emptied. Our carbon source was emptied and the phosphate went up directly to higher levels than we wanted

Hopefully it is only the phosphate!
Due to the constant dosing of carbohydrates, which primary reduces NH4 due to biomass ( protein) production, the nitrification capacity will be reduced drastically, a lot less nitrate is produced . If the growth of nitrifying biofilms is prevented or reduced also the denitrification capacity is reduced, taking place in the same biofilm. The system becomes dependable of the carbon dosing and heterothropic growth to support its carrying capacity based on the capacity to reduce ammonia . The moment carbohydrate dosing is stopped or not enough building materials are available to sustain the growth rate of biomass, ammonia may accumulate as not enough nitrification .capacity is available. It will take a lot of time to reinstall enough nitrification to bring the the carrying capacity to a level which can support the present biomass. A big system like this one would expect it has a stable and reliable system for supporting the carrying capacity!
I would restart dosing very fast and look out for a better and reliable way to support the system and to reduce ammonia!

 

[Sallstrom]

Hopefully it is only the phosphate!
Due to the constant dosing of carbohydrates, which primary reduces NH4 due to biomass ( protein) production, the nitrification capacity will be reduced drastically, a lot less nitrate is produced . If the growth of nitrifying biofilms is prevented or reduced also the denitrification capacity is reduced, taking place in the same biofilm. The system becomes dependable of the carbon dosing and heterothropic growth to support its carrying capacity based on the capacity to reduce ammonia . The moment carbohydrate dosing is stopped or not enough building materials are available to sustain the growth rate of biomass, ammonia may accumulate as not enough nitrification .capacity is available. It will take a lot of time to reinstall enough nitrification to bring the the carrying capacity to a level which can support the present biomass. Such a big system should have a stable and reliable system for supporting the carrying capacity! I would restart dosing very fast and look out for a better and reliable way to support the system and reduce ammonia!

Have you seen this type of scenario in a reef tank or is this in theory?
I'm not saying you are wrong, but I've been dosing ethanol for at least ten years. Not always, but when needed. I've never had these problems you mention. Of course you need to be careful, not overdose etc. But never seen problems with ammonia.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I've been running a little experiment with cyano. Summer hit and life took over so I had some tank issues that cause another cyano bloom. Instead of actually disrupting cyano growth and constantly stirring the sandbed, I decided to leave the growth and the sandbed to do it's own thing. Only different thing I've done was dose nitrates liberally every other day. Here is what is happening.



The red patches are turning green. The picture above shows the left side and front side of the tank.

After it turns green, the green goes away. Shown below towards the back of the tank.


This image below shows the left front of the again but a couple weeks later.



I pulled the green out and had a look under the scope.. Not sure if it gives much information but it's a stringy mat that doesn't recede at night. It just eventually goes away.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Have you seen this type of scenario in a reef tank or is this in theory?
I'm not saying you are wrong, but I've been dosing ethanol for at least ten years. Not always, but when needed. I've never had these problems you mention. Of course you need to be careful, not overdose etc. But never seen problems with ammonia.

How frequently one measures for ammonia? Most do not. The risk to create the new tank syndrome in an established system of such a size is very low but NH3 is a slow killer as it may accumulate between the cell membranes as NH4 . Normally NH3 is reduced very fast . When NH3 is reduced by growth it can not be used for nitrification. If the growth stops or is interrupted the NH3 will not be removed for a period of time as nitrifiers grow slowly and are not able to increase the nitrification capacity on short notice. Time enough to penetrate the membranes of living creatures. The first thing one learns when starting with the hobby is that one has to install an adequate carrying capacity based on nitrification. Dosing carbon replaces the installed autothropic carrying capacity by heterothropic growth! it is wrong to suppose that carbohydrate dosing only removes nitrate. In most cases it does not. Bacteria prefer NH3. They only will use nitrate as a nitrogen source when no NH3 is available. Also cyano's! As the nitrification capacity is reduced less nitrate is produced . If the denitrification capacity can be maintained the nitrate level will decent.
One can only see the result of this scenario when it is to late and most will not be able to find a link to what has happened. The risk is easily prevented by slowly build of dosing. And install a reliable ammonia reduction capacity.
Nature limits the availability of organic carbon by transforming it to CO2 for a reason!

 

[Sallstrom]

How frequently one measures for ammonia? Most do not. The risk to create the new tank syndrome in an established system of such a size is very low but NH3 is a slow killer as it may accumulate between the cell membranes as NH4 . Normally NH3 is reduced very fast . When NH3 is reduced by growth it can not be used for nitrification. If the growth stops or is interrupted the NH3 will not be removed for a period of time as nitrifiers grow slowly and are not able to increase the nitrification capacity on short notice. Time enough to penetrate the membranes of living creatures. The first thing one learns when starting with the hobby is that one has to install an adequate carrying capacity based on nitrification. Dosing carbon replaces the installed autothropic carrying capacity by heterothropic growth! it is wrong to suppose that carbohydrate dosing only removes nitrate. In most cases it does not. Bacteria prefer NH3. They only will use nitrate as a nitrogen source when no NH3 is available. Also cyano's! As the nitrification capacity is reduced less nitrate is produced . If the denitrification capacity can be maintained the nitrate level will decent.
One can only see the result of this scenario when it is to late and most will not be able to find a link to what has happened. The risk is easily prevented by slowly build of dosing. And install a reliable ammonia reduction capacity.
Nature limits the availability of organic carbon by transforming it to CO2 for a reason!

I don't think anyone is replacing the life support system with carbon dosing. It's just a way of adjusting the nutrient levels. The added amounts of carbon source are very low. For example we add 50ml 40% ethanol to 26000L a day.
I'm looking forward to measuring DOC in our tanks. Will be really interesting! Hope Triton starts their N-DOC tests soon

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I don't think anyone is replacing the life support system with carbon dosing. It's just a way of adjusting the nutrient levels. The added amounts of carbon source are very low. For example we add 50ml 40% ethanol to 26000L a day.
I'm looking forward to measuring DOC in our tanks. Will be really interesting! Hope Triton starts their N-DOC tests soon

That is your opinion. I am shore a lot of people are not aware of what they do when dosing carbohydrates. Considering it as just a way to adjust nutrients without taking in account the caveats is in my opinion not good husbandry. There is no problem using carbohydrates to make corrections, using it for nutrient transport is something else. 50ml 40% ethanol is enough for assimilating +- 2grams or 2000mg nitrate for which +- 200mg phosphate is needed . As most nitrogen is retrieved from NH4 it is easier to talk about NO3-N and NH4-N When it comes to cyano control carbon dosing will effect the growth of microbial mats due to the competition for nutrients. Most of commercial products to control cyano's are ( probably) based on carbohydrates. As one does not know the composition of most of these products using them may not be that safe as advertised.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

That is your opinion. I am shore a lot of people are not aware of what they do when dosing carbohydrates. Considering it as just a way to adjust nutrients without taking in account the caveats is in my opinion not good husbandry. There is no problem using carbohydrates to make corrections, using it for nutrient transport is something else. 50ml 40% ethanol is enough for assimilating +- 2grams or 2000mg nitrate for which +- 200mg phosphate is needed . As most nitrogen is retrieved from NH4 it is easier to talk about NO3-N and NH4-N When it comes to cyano control carbon dosing will effect the growth of microbial mats due to the competition for nutrients. .

I don't think anyone is replacing the life support system with carbon dosing. It's just a way of adjusting the nutrient levels. The added amounts of carbon source are very low. For example we add 50ml 40% ethanol to 26000L a day.
I'm looking forward to measuring DOC in our tanks. Will be really interesting! Hope Triton starts their N-DOC tests soon

As I could not Finnish the response within the time limit here the finished response.

That is your opinion. I am shore a lot of people are not aware of what they do when dosing carbohydrates. Considering it as just a way to adjust nutrients without taking in account the caveats is in my opinion not good husbandry. There is no problem using carbohydrates to make corrections, using it for nutrient transport is something else.

50ml 40% ethanol is enough for assimilating +- 2grams or 2000mg nitrate for which +- 200mg phosphate is needed . As most nitrogen is retrieved from NH4 it is easier to talk about NO3-N and NH4-N. 50ml 40% may assimilate +- 500mg Nitrogen and +- 70mg phosphorus producing +- 4 grams of protein , equal to +-10grams standard food with 35% protein. For a 26000l aquarium this is only 0.08 ppm nitrate and 0.008 ppm phosphate which may be removed daily if 100% is effectively driven out. As protein will be consumed and recycled and as one may estimate only +- 35% of DOC present in the water column is effectively removed by the skimmer a removal rate of 20% seems to be even a bit optimistic.

Indeed, it seems that in this system there is no or very little shift from autotropic to heterotropic ammonia reduction. But it depends of the total daily nitrogen production in the system.
In smaller systems it is best to dose carbon based on a known parameter, for example on the daily or weekly nitrate overproduction. This way an uncontrollable shift from autotropic to heterotropic ammonia reduction may be avoided.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Most of commercial products to control cyano's are ( probably) based on carbohydrates. As one does not know the composition of most of these products using them may not be that safe as advertised.

 

[Sallstrom]

@Belgian Anthias
Thank you for all the info. Glad to here that we are on the safe side with our dosing.

Now I think we should let this thread go back to Potatohead's tank and his/her fight against Cyanobacteria. To me it sound like the tank is doing better. Wouldn't you agree?

I personally don't use commercial products for treating aquariums for Cyanobacteria anymore. I like to know what I add to the water. I think at least one of them is antibiotics.

 

[BigJohnny]

Ok so I finally got my results back from ATI ICP testing - I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. I think it is very obvious what my problem is. These water samples were taken about four weeks ago after I had already removed my GFO (which was actually aluminum oxide and probably why the aluminum is slightly elevated). Since then I have started dosing phosphate as well as Nopox. I am having to dose about .05 - .06 ppm of phosphate per day just to maintain a level about half that, my last three tests have been in the .02-.03 range over the past 2 - 3 weeks. Nitrate right now is 30-35. I am seeing a reduction in the growth rate of the cyano, the red is minimal, the green is still there but it grows much more slowly. I have not manually removed any for about a week just to see what happens, I think I am on the right track. I am going to continue dosing Nopox and possibly increase my phosphate dosing to try and get levels stable around 5 and .05. One thing I have also noticed, since I started dosing nopox and phosphate is my skimmer is working much, much better, pulling out a lot more and maintaining more consistent foam.

I guess one good thing is that all my test kits are very accurate. lol

RODI

I cant see those results, very pixelated. Is that just me?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I've been running a little experiment with cyano. Summer hit and life took over so I had some tank issues that cause another cyano bloom. Instead of actually disrupting cyano growth and constantly stirring the sandbed, I decided to leave the growth and the sandbed to do it's own thing. Only different thing I've done was dose nitrates liberally every other day. Here is what is happening

What was used to dose nitrate? How much was dosed? On what parameters the NO3-N doses are based? Why nitrate as a nitrogen source?

 

[reeferfoxx]

What was used to dose nitrate? How much was dosed? On what parameters the NO3-N doses are based? Why nitrate as a nitrogen source?

Kno3

Dosing between 5 to 15mg. Kno3 was mixed at 10 grams per 500ml.

Why nitrates? Good question. What happens when you dose only nitrates?

 

[Super Fly]

I also battled cyano for quite some time and my tactic was to increase flow and keep the water very clean (reduce light, reduce feeding, more frequent water change, use GFO, siphon sand etc). No matter what I did cyano kept returning. Until when I stumbled onto a thread that said Ultra Low Nutrient tanks can lead to cyano and other problems, one should aim for 1-5ppm NO3 and 0.01-0.06ppm PO4. I did a chemiclean treatment back in Aug, stopped using GFO, reduced flow, removed carbon and have been feeding a lot more to keep tank "dirty" and cyano has been gone since. I monitor PO4 and NO3 and only use GFO when PO4 starts showing up. Now I struggle to keep the tank "dirty", lol!

 

[reeferfoxx]

I've been running a little experiment with cyano. Summer hit and life took over so I had some tank issues that cause another cyano bloom. Instead of actually disrupting cyano growth and constantly stirring the sandbed, I decided to leave the growth and the sandbed to do it's own thing. Only different thing I've done was dose nitrates liberally every other day. Here is what is happening.



The red patches are turning green. The picture above shows the left side and front side of the tank.

After it turns green, the green goes away. Shown below towards the back of the tank.


This image below shows the left front of the again but a couple weeks later.



I pulled the green out and had a look under the scope.. Not sure if it gives much information but it's a stringy mat that doesn't recede at night. It just eventually goes away.

Still going away. Slowly but surely..

 

[Potatohead]

So I thought I would provide another update now that I am back from vacation. I haven't really changed anything since my last update, but I am getting some red cyano again on the sand and a bit on the rocks, probably from carbon dosing again, but it's not terrible and the amount has been steady for about a month now. The green cyano is totally gone. I am still dosing phosphate along with the carbon, 12 ml vinegar (switched from nopox to see if it would help the cyano, little change) and phosphate is holding steady about .04 ppm, my nitrate is down to the 15-20 range. The only corals that suck are most of my zoas, they only open like 25% of the way, I don't know why, but my acros, acans and euphyllia are doing well for the most part. I really think I just need more coral load in the tank and that will help with the bit of cyano, but obviously I can't do much until stuff grows some more. I will send in another ICP test soon.

 

[Potatohead]

Ok guys I need some more advice and/or help.

Since returning home from vacation the red cyano on the sandbed is slowly getting worse. It also grows on any remaining turf algae in the tank, which is really knocked back from the urchins. It only grows on the rocks about 10% as much as the sand. It is a different cyano though than I had before, it is a rust color and somewhat “dusty” and thin. It does disappear when the lights go out. I have continued to stir the sand once or twice a week but curious now about not touching it. My corals are doing well.

A few days ago my phosphate rose to about .08. My nitrate currently sits about 15. I dropped the phosphate dose down and currently at .04. Also since switching from nopox to vinegar I haven’t noticed much difference.

Here are my theories:

1) Because I am dosing some inorganic phosphate, some of that is clinging to sand/rocks and feeding cyano. It doesn’t make sense why the rocks are mostly clean and cyano really clings to turf algae in that scenario though.

2) carbon doing is causing it. Currently dose 9ml vinegar per day into 70 gallons.

3) When I got home from vacation there was some brown, whispy algae on the back glass. I cleaned it off and removed as much as I could but a fair bit stayed in the system. Maybe that decaying algae is feeding it

Course of action:

1) slowly reduce phosphate dosing and feed more. Will probably need to increase carbon dose to help with nitrate.

2) if carbon dose is the cyano fuel, above scenario should make it worse. Could try switching to vodka only?

3) water changes and manual removal


Any thoughts on which theory may be correct or which direction to take?