Cyano nutrient loop (catch 22)

[154162]

Hi, I’ve been battling with Cyano for over a month now...
the tank was started around mid May, all parameters are inline... like average, the only ones that are more worrying are nitrates and phosphates... they were always present but on the low side, for a while, it was pretty constant 2ppm nitrate, 0.02 phosphate, this last week they dropped to zero... I tried feeding to bring them up, but I’m coming to realize this is fuelling the Cyano, I’ve never used nutrient control like GFO or purigen for nitrates, just been doing weekly water changes, I have been pulling the Cyano out with a syphon at every water change.... I’ve turned down lights and these last few days I’ve pulled my whites considerably... couple of weeks back I tried chemiclean, didn’t really seem to work. My zoas and mushrooms aren’t doing great either, due to the low nutrients...
now if I feed more I fuel the Cyano, right?
So I now if add chemipure elite for phosphates and purigen for nitrates, will I get Dino’s after the Cyano dies? Do I need to suffocate the Cyano with zero nutrients to kill it ?

 

[Idoc]

I would raise my no3 and po4 by dosing or removing export mechanisms. The fluctuation in nutrients seem to fuel the cyano in my experience. Keep the dinos away and less worry about the cyano... the 2 seem to go together many times when the nutrients bottom out. If stable for awhile and the cyano won't go away, then maybe attempt the chemi-clean again.

 

[brandon429]

How many gallons is this tank, that matters in treatment options

if the tank is small enough you can clean it a certain way, you’ll win. We could remove the waste feeding it + the matted invasion all at once, we have lots of work examples with outcomes handy as well.

 

[154162]

@Idoc
What Ppm levels of nitrate and phosphate would recommend reaching?
Previously I had 2ppm nitrate and 0.02 phosphates

 

[154162]

@brandon429

It’s Fluval Evo 13.5, I remove it weekly with water changes, but keeps coming back

 

[brandon429]

People in the nanos group are unique.


For example, head on to the picos section of nano-reef.com, scan the threads, try and find multi cyano invasions going on or dinos, specifically in that forum.

It will be hard to find


now consider any other forum's general section...ours. or reefcentral.com or thereeftank.com

check out their general posts and help forums, cyano and dinos are very common


one forum has no issues we can find



all others have patterned issues



pico reefers at nano-reef.com got introduced to rip cleaning in about 2006 its why they r on cruise control. they know they're allowed to deep clean and it wont cause harm, so they do, and then they're uninvaded.


read just the last page of jobs here below, these are hundred + gallon reefs.

how easy and fast would it be to rinse out your sandbed, replace the water, and put a 13 gallon back together considering the huge reefs we've done here for five years?

chance of beating your invasion, about 99% likely.

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

I am fairly worried about moving my freshwater setup as it is fairly overstocked (reduces aggression as no one fish gets singled out). I did fail to think about the toxicity of nitrite on top of ammonia toxicity... Here is my plan for the cichlid tank. I have gradually reduced my pH from 8.2 to...

www.reef2reef.com

one of the most important tricks to making a nano reef outlive any other nano reef on the planet is wielding that above confidently. its true you can adjust nutrients and add more bioloading/cuc into the reef to eat the invasion but it won't de-age the tank like we do


the longest running nanos on the planet force the condition, and in that thread we didnt take a single test reading or identify a single invader, that would be hesitating.

we would:

take apart your tank and clean off the rocks in saltwater

rinse the sand out in tap water for an hour until clear, nothing has it invaded then.

reassemble all the new sand and rinsed rocks and all new water, matching temp and salinity.

acclimate fish and corals back in last. skips the cycle, every single time.

*re ramp up your lights like new dont immediately go back to full light power.

 

[User1]

I am not going to go into should you, shouldn't you, or what is right. However, I do know in my experience when I start to see cyano, and I'm dealing with it now, my nutrients are too low. Phosphate or Nitrates, one of them is 0. In this paticular round it is Nitrates 0 (Nyos kit) and Phosphates 0.6 (hanna).

I ran a few tests daily and they are more or less consistent. Even if the nyos kit isn't great and off due to hobby level kit it is still consistently 0. So I decided to raise it. I picked up Loudwolf's Sodium Nitrate. Made a small batch, 400 ml, and used the calculator to dose. My goal was to raise between 3 and 5 ppm which I think I did. It is now holding between 3 and 5 PPM for at least the first week. Seems it was probably 5 ppm last week and now 3 ppm. So I'll test again on Wednesday and see what it does. If it continues to drop then I will probably does a small amount to bring it back to 5. Only side effect is that phosphates went from .06 to .17 during this same perioud.

Cyno seems to be not as strong on the sandbed. Still on some of the rocks but overall it is lighter on the sand so it seems to be helping. How this may relate to you? I'm not sure other than 0 is probably not a good idea. How much you feed, fish, etc. I'm 2 1/2 years into my tanks upgrade and still have few fish so maybe feeding isn't taking care of some of the requirements. However, it does seem we need nutrients in our tank.

Zero is bad just like it is for our savings account

 

[ScottB]

I agree with @saf1 that missing a measurable nutrient is a common cause of cyano. Then when the second nutrient depletes you are welcoming dinos.

I see cyano as a "transitional" outbreak. I went through it several times after transitioning out of dinos, gradually raising nutrients. Eventually, the cyano gets outcompeted by other microfauna, bacteria films, algae films as long as nutrients remain steadily available. Your system is still a little young, so adding in the nutrients (BOTH) may make the cyano marginally worse for a period until the competitor cavalry has a chance to build force.

 

[Miller535]

I agree with @saf1 that missing a measurable nutrient is a common cause of cyano. Then when the second nutrient depletes you are welcoming dinos.

I see cyano as a "transitional" outbreak. I went through it several times after transitioning out of dinos, gradually raising nutrients. Eventually, the cyano gets outcompeted by other microfauna, bacteria films, algae films as long as nutrients remain steadily available. Your system is still a little young, so adding in the nutrients (BOTH) may make the cyano marginally worse for a period until the competitor cavalry has a chance to build force.

Yes. And somewhere along the way, as a community we associated all unwanted algae with high nutrients. When in fact some do come from high nutrients, but in the case of cyano and dino they come from low. Unfortunately because we associate all algae with high, when it is cyano and or dino we make it worse by adding things to remove nutrients even further.

 

[AcanthurusRex]

People in the nanos group are unique.
...

You recommend a rip-clean every 4 months? Tank was set up in July based on the build thread date.

 

[brandon429]

there is no timeframe.

we either want to be invaded in nano reefing, and permit it, or we dont. if someone is feeding heavy and shining strong white light, they'll be ripping more often.

Dosing with meds or adjusting nutrients does not help him with GHA prevention, it leaves clouding in the rocks and sand which we remove.


we're thinking next succession invasion not just the current with deep cleans. my own 15 year old nano goes about 2 yrs between rips. its not harmful to apply them, thats why we dont ask for tank details. Per that thread, any reef in this forum can force a cleaning and it will look like the ones we collect there.


there is no harm to the method, its only beneficial and it makes use of being accessible.

we are opting out of the uglies by deep cleaning, and being invaded is merely opting into the uglies. no harm if he wants to let the invasion run its course, and no harm if he wants to make the tank look exactly perfect by force.

 

[brandon429]

can we see pics of the reef

curious as to light/med/heavy invasion

pics w show basic lighting balance, collections in the bed or not in the cross section, whether or not rock is all white etc

*the practice of being able to do a command cleaning before the reef is packed with life is also another nice timing benefit of running it early on in the reef, before invasions set in. Age of the actual system has no bearing, we're at a choice point.


no harm even if he skips this option and ops for natural controls and waits, not a prob. If things ever go south, a nano can simply be undone on the spot. Bring it to us 10x invaded vs now, same outcome

 

[92Miata]

Yes. And somewhere along the way, as a community we associated all unwanted algae with high nutrients. When in fact some do come from high nutrients, but in the case of cyano and dino they come from low. Unfortunately because we associate all algae with high, when it is cyano and or dino we make it worse by adding things to remove nutrients even further.

Its not really that they come from low nutrients - they thrive on imbalance. Many cyano species can fix atmospheric nitrogen - they just pull dissolved N2 out of the water - so they have a huge advantage when nitrates bottom out. Some also can create areas of low pH when they matt - which allows them to dissolve the surface of rock and release phosphates. They get outcompeted by things like coralline when the tank is healthy - but if you cripple the coralline and corals - cyano and dinos and all these primitive edge consumers have a huge advantage.


This whole idea that "your nutrients are zero because the algae is eating them so fast" needs to die a thousand deaths. The nutrients are zero because water quality is fine and the algae isn't being caused by a water quality issue - its being caused by localized waste, and lack of competitors.

 

[brandon429]

I would also add this

what ATS user/owner/seller on the planet touts them as grow once and lock your nutrients forever




its harvest twice a day forever, get low nutrients.

but if algae is on a rock, sitting there, then its scrubbed everything? misnomer. test read variance guessing causative

 

[Miller535]

Its not really that they come from low nutrients - they thrive on imbalance. Many cyano species can fix atmospheric nitrogen - they just pull dissolved N2 out of the water - so they have a huge advantage when nitrates bottom out. Some also can create areas of low pH when they matt - which allows them to dissolve the surface of rock and release phosphates. They get outcompeted by things like coralline when the tank is healthy - but if you cripple the coralline and corals - cyano and dinos and all these primitive edge consumers have a huge advantage.


This whole idea that "your nutrients are zero because the algae is eating them so fast" needs to die a thousand deaths. The nutrients are zero because water quality is fine and the algae isn't being caused by a water quality issue - its being caused by localized waste, and lack of competitors.

Cyano and dino thrive in low nutrient systems (they are able to do this where most other algae species can not), you can call that an imbalance if you'd like. But really we are saying basically the same thing. I do fully agree with your second point though.

 

[ScottB]

Its not really that they come from low nutrients - they thrive on imbalance. Many cyano species can fix atmospheric nitrogen - they just pull dissolved N2 out of the water - so they have a huge advantage when nitrates bottom out. Some also can create areas of low pH when they matt - which allows them to dissolve the surface of rock and release phosphates. They get outcompeted by things like coralline when the tank is healthy - but if you cripple the coralline and corals - cyano and dinos and all these primitive edge consumers have a huge advantage.


This whole idea that "your nutrients are zero because the algae is eating them so fast" needs to die a thousand deaths. The nutrients are zero because water quality is fine and the algae isn't being caused by a water quality issue - its being caused by localized waste, and lack of competitors.

This is a great contribution to the discussion. Thank you!

 

[Bpfor3]

Interesting discussion. i have a 150 gallon mixed reef, up and running for 14 months. Never had any nuisance algae issues until i dosed peroxide in an experiment to slow down ich. Dosed for 8 weeks. Within a week of stopping i started to get Cyano. My thought is that the peroxide put a dent in my microfauna, which has caused the Cyano to take hold a bit.

 

[ScottB]

Interesting discussion. i have a 150 gallon mixed reef, up and running for 14 months. Never had any nuisance algae issues until i dosed peroxide in an experiment to slow down ich. Dosed for 8 weeks. Within a week of stopping i started to get Cyano. My thought is that the peroxide put a dent in my microfauna, which has caused the Cyano to take hold a bit.

I know some very experienced reefers here deploy H2O2 with considerable comfort. It is a very efficient oxidizer, but a rather indiscriminate one from my understanding. I am unclear about how to know when the positives of dosing outweigh.

 

[Bpfor3]

Me either. Visually, my soft corals and anemones are much fuller since i stopped. Whether that is due to the peroxide or something else, i do not know.

 

[Idoc]

@Idoc
What Ppm levels of nitrate and phosphate would recommend reaching?
Previously I had 2ppm nitrate and 0.02 phosphates

I personally have been shooting for 5-10ppm no3 and 0.05-0.10 po4 in my system after battling dinos/cyano. But, my nutrients are around 20ppm no3 and 0.2ppm po4 and I've started seeing a bit of red cyano sneaking in some.