Cyano question ....

[grantUcorals]

Can TOO LOW of nitrates and phosphates cause cyano??

 

[road_runner]

..

 

[jsker]

Yes....well.. I believe it's more of the imbalance especially in zero po4 and detectable no3...

+1

 

[MabuyaQ]

Yes....well.. I believe it's more of the imbalance especially in zero po4 and detectable no3...

+2

 

[Dan_P]

Can TOO LOW of nitrates and phosphates cause cyano??

Everything and nothing seems to cause cyanobacteria films and mats.

Nitrate and phosphate levels seem to be very poor predictors of whether cyanobacteria grow. The same levels in 100 aquaria may or may not lead to the formation of cyanobacteria films. Cyanobacteria grown outside the aquarium will barely grow with nitrate and phosphate levels found in the aquarium. A likely reason is that beneficial conditions for growth develop at the surface where it grows and we simply do not have the means to detect them. For some reason, a new aquarium or a clean surface, like a new rock placed in an older aquarium seems to have a good chance of developing cyanobacteria film. Modifying these surface conditions, such as vacuuming the substrate, blowing detritus build up from hard surfaces and increasing water flow over surfaces, has been suggested to diminish cyanobacteria growth.

 

[Subsea]

@Dan_P
I am so glad you came over from RC. Your knowledge / experience is a welcome beam of light.

I just dealt with the same question about low nutrients & cyno on another thread.


@Randy Holmes-Farley described a process in which Cynobacteria mat dissolved inorganic calcium phosphate and assimilated organic phosphate into its biomass.

http://cmore.soest.hawaii.edu/cruises/biolincs/microbes.htm
Nitrogen fixation by Cynobacteria converts Nitrogen gas into a nitrate molecule. This makes Earth a green planet.

MARINE BACTERIA
Marine bacteria are single-celled organisms that can be shaped like little spheres, rods, or (less commonly) spirals. The are often very small, with cell diameters of just a few microns (about 1/100th the width of a human hair). They perform all kinds of chemical processes in the open ocean, including most of the steps in nitrogen cycling.

Cyanobacteria are a large group of photosynthetic bacteria, some of which can “fix” nitrogen, converting nitrogen gas into more biologically useful compounds. Cyanobacteria live in all kinds of environments, but are especially important in open-ocean ecosystems. They were formerly known as “blue-green algae” but are now recognized as a type of bacteria, not an algae.


Heterocystus cyanobacteria are multi-celled organisms that form microscopic filaments and perform nitrogen fixation in the open ocean. The most common genus of heterocystus cyanobacteria in open-ocean areas is Richelia, which is almost always found living inside of diatoms, a type of microscopic marine algae.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t think that low nitrate or phosphate makes ANYTHING grow better. What it might do is inhibit competitors for things like trace elements from growing well and hence no longer outcompeting the cyano (or worse, dinos).

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P
I am so glad you came over from RC. Your knowledge / experience is a welcome beam of light.

I just dealt with the same question about low nutrients & cyno on another thread.


@Randy Holmes-Farley described a process in which Cynobacteria mat dissolved inorganic calcium phosphate and assimilated organic phosphate into its biomass.

http://cmore.soest.hawaii.edu/cruises/biolincs/microbes.htm
Nitrogen fixation by Cynobacteria converts Nitrogen gas into a nitrate molecule. This makes Earth a green planet.

MARINE BACTERIA
Marine bacteria are single-celled organisms that can be shaped like little spheres, rods, or (less commonly) spirals. The are often very small, with cell diameters of just a few microns (about 1/100th the width of a human hair). They perform all kinds of chemical processes in the open ocean, including most of the steps in nitrogen cycling.

Cyanobacteria are a large group of photosynthetic bacteria, some of which can “fix” nitrogen, converting nitrogen gas into more biologically useful compounds. Cyanobacteria live in all kinds of environments, but are especially important in open-ocean ecosystems. They were formerly known as “blue-green algae” but are now recognized as a type of bacteria, not an algae.


Heterocystus cyanobacteria are multi-celled organisms that form microscopic filaments and perform nitrogen fixation in the open ocean. The most common genus of heterocystus cyanobacteria in open-ocean areas is Richelia, which is almost always found living inside of diatoms, a type of microscopic marine algae.

Thank you @Subsea for your kind words.

@Hans-Werner also feels that cyanobacteria growth is encouraged by phosphates, like those bound to aragonite which can become available to microbes through various metabolic means. When I culture cyanobacteria (Spirulina), phosphate has a positive affect on growth but its “linear”. Add a little more, and there is a little more growth. There is no PO4 level “threshold” which if crossed causes a cyanobacteria bloom. In fact, I have not found the culture conditions that cause cyanobacteria to grow luxurious mats such as those observed in aquaria.

One reason that cultivation of marine bacteria is difficult or impossible is that bacteria depend on other microorganisms to flourish. If this is the true for benthic filamentous cyanobacteria, I need to stumble on the conditions that makes something else grow well before my Spirulina takes off. @taricha is taking an interesting approach to reproduce the conditions in flasks that seem to cause filamentous cyanobacteria to bloom in the aquarium. We should hear something about these attempts in a week or two.

 

[road_runner]

This thread turning to an awesome share if informations from people that are really worth listening to.
Thank you @Dan_P and randy.
I hope ome day someone truly demystify the cyano and its contributing factors to help everyone in this hobby..
Thank you all.

 

[Dan_P]

This thread turning to an awesome share if informations from people that are really worth listening to.
Thank you @Dan_P and randy.
I hope ome day someone truly demystify the cyano and its contributing factors to help everyone in this hobby..
Thank you all.

Appreciate your enthusiasm. Dan

 

[Nano sapiens]

For some reason, a new aquarium or a clean surface, like a new rock placed in an older aquarium seems to have a good chance of developing cyanobacteria film.

For cyano on our rocks, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the lack of competition from mature biofilm and periphyton communities could be a major contributor to cyanobacterial blooms in new aquariums (with new rocks) or when rock surfaces have been cleaned. This may be why we can't specifically pin the issue down to any specific parameter (such as Salinity, PO4, NO3, etc.)

IME, in my mature systems over many years, I've found cyano on the live rock typically grows on places where I've removed a previously glued frag plug or small rock (thus exposing 'fresh' underlying surface) and on recently denuded coral skeletons (irrespective of PO4 or NO3 levels). Given a month or three, these fresh surfaces 'mature' and the localized cyano blooms then gradually disappear.

 

[Dan_P]

For cyano on our rocks, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the lack of competition from mature biofilm and periphyton communities could be a major contributor to cyanobacterial blooms in new aquariums (with new rocks) or when rock surfaces have been cleaned. This may be why we can't specifically pin the issue down to any specific parameter (such as Salinity, PO4, NO3, etc.)

IME, in my mature systems over many years, I've found cyano on the live rock typically grows on places where I've removed a previously glued frag plug or small rock (thus exposing 'fresh' underlying surface) and on recently denuded coral skeletons (irrespective of PO4 or NO3 levels). Given a month or three, these fresh surfaces 'mature' and the localized cyano blooms then gradually disappear.

Great scenario description. I would add that cyanobacteria are very likely growing in every aquarium all the time, from scatted filaments to thin films we don’t notice.

My cyano cultures so far do not grow like manics, producing thick luxurious films and mats like the disturbing variety in aquaria. @taricha and I are exploring synergy or mutualism with heterotrophic bacteria as the favorable condition rather than the reduction of competition as the cause for these thick growths. Why?

It seems that cyanobacteria cultures can be given all the free space and nutrients needed, but they never turn into maniacal reproducers. I think we might be dealing a Jekyll and Hyde situation.

 

[Subsea]

For cyano on our rocks, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the lack of competition from mature biofilm and periphyton communities could be a major contributor to cyanobacterial blooms in new aquariums (with new rocks) or when rock surfaces have been cleaned. This may be why we can't specifically pin the issue down to any specific parameter (such as Salinity, PO4, NO3, etc.)

IME, in my mature systems over many years, I've found cyano on the live rock typically grows on places where I've removed a previously glued frag plug or small rock (thus exposing 'fresh' underlying surface) and on recently denuded coral skeletons (irrespective of PO4 or NO3 levels). Given a month or three, these fresh surfaces 'mature' and the localized cyano blooms then gradually disappear.

No limbs here. We have a full grown tree to support this theory.

@Lasse Does this described “Crowded Bus Syndrome”

 

[Subsea]

Great scenario description. I would add that cyanobacteria are very likely growing in every aquarium all the time, from scatted filaments to thin films we don’t notice.

My cyano cultures so far do not grow like manics, producing thick luxurious films and mats like the disturbing variety in aquaria. @taricha and I are exploring synergy or mutualism with heterotrophic bacteria as the favorable condition rather than the reduction of competition as the cause for these thick growths. Why?

It seems that cyanobacteria cultures can be given all the free space and nutrients needed, but they never turn into maniacal reproducers. I think we might be dealing a Jekyll and Hyde situation.

Considering that algae, bacteria & coral can all alter dna expression in response to crosstalk within the Coral Holibiont, a Jekyl & Hyde situation should not be surprising.

 

[Lasse]

Does this described “Crowded Bus Syndrome

In a way - yes - but in the beginning - the cyano are the buss passengers However - with a little help we can move them from the buss and get place for the others.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Nano sapiens]

Great scenario description. I would add that cyanobacteria are very likely growing in every aquarium all the time, from scatted filaments to thin films we don’t notice.

Absolutely. The definition of periphyton alone includes cyanobacteria as part of it's makeup.

People tend to lump cyanobacteria under one catch-all 'Cyano', but Cyanophyta is a large phylum with many different species. The cyano species that are constituents of Periphyton, for example, may not be the same species that blooms on live rock or one that forms dense mats on a sand bed. Stands to reason that different cyano species would require different conditions in order to bloom.

 

[taricha]

http://cmore.soest.hawaii.edu/cruises/biolincs/microbes.htm
Nitrogen fixation by Cynobacteria converts Nitrogen gas into a nitrate molecule. This makes Earth a green planet.

I've made this claim myself, but we may need to re-evaluate it...

Heterocystus cyanobacteria are multi-celled organisms that form microscopic filaments and perform nitrogen fixation in the open ocean.

...heterocysts would be a giveaway that we're seeing nitrogen fixing, but I've never seen heterocysts in the cyano in aquarium benthic mats. I've seen mostly oscillatoria with some spirulina well represented and other things I can't put a name to that show up rarely. Lyngbya also but usually it gets called a hair algae and not a mat. anyway. None of the nitrogen fixers listed in your great link are things that we observe plaguing our tanks. Does that mean our cyano don't fix nitrogen? well, I ran across two papers recently that mentioned nitrogen fixing in oscillatoria: one said they do and one said they don't. :-/
Dan has observed nitrogen stress response in his lower N cultures of spirulina, a color change where they eat their phycobilin pigments which they keep as a spare source of N.
I've observed oscillatoria grow strongly in corners of my sump where I sprinkled NaNO3 pellets as a test. then recede when I stopped, then start back up when I added more pellets. When I did the same in the sandbed - I got nothing. hmm....
What to make of all this?
Not sure, but I lean toward the interpretation that our cyano are not nitrogen fixers, but they are well adapted to nitrogen stress - Dan's experiment the cyano kept growing as it ate its pigments. That's a nice trick! And many tanks with undetectable Nitrate have plenty of happy cyano.

@taricha is taking an interesting approach to reproduce the conditions in flasks that seem to cause filamentous cyanobacteria to bloom in the aquarium. We should hear something about these attempts in a week or two.

What I can say definitively is that beakers kill cyano. If one constructed a reef tank entirely out of lab beakers, cyano would struggle mightily to ever grow in that system.

IME, in my mature systems over many years, I've found cyano on the live rock typically grows on places where I've removed a previously glued frag plug or small rock (thus exposing 'fresh' underlying surface) and on recently denuded coral skeletons

I see the same, but my interpretation is slightly different. cyano colonizes recently dead coral, recently dead rock that got cleaned/ had organisms exposed, and recently dead algae. It seems great at exploiting conditions in/around decay. [Black band disease is - in part - an oscillatoria that can eat a cm of live coral per day!]
What if the most important part of the way cyano gets N that others struggle with is not the nitogen fixation, but is instead the remineralization and nitrification see steps #6 & 7 from subsea's link. This is why we keep looking at the cyano associates.

(sorry that got long...)

 

[Stuartmercer]

yes, if nutrients are too low, cyano, will try to take the rest up before all if the nutrients are used up. basically to outlive everything else

 

[Dan_P]

[Black band disease is - in part - an oscillatoria that can eat a cm of live coral per day!]
What if the most important part of the way cyano gets N that others struggle with is not the nitogen fixation, but is instead the remineralization and nitrification see steps #6 & 7 from subsea's link. This is why we keep looking at the cyano associates.

(sorry that got long...)

Just finished the introduction of the link you provided on black band disease. Quite an eye opener.

Oscillatoria is the primary cyanobacteria of the black band mat, but the mat is described as a rather complex mixture of bacteria and being vertically structured. Like other cyanobacteria films and mats, it is better described as an ecosystem rather than a colony of bacteria.

Near the end of the introduction I found this nugget

From these results it appears that microcystin is toxic to corals, but on the other hand stimulates growth of at least some species of bacteria

Should we start thinking about cyanobacteria mats as problematic ecosystems and not simply a colony of problematic bacteria? Might explain in part why mats are so resilient and do not respond readily to “cures” or tweaks to nutrient levels in the water. And just maybe ecosystems are more difficult to culture than organisms, though I am not ready to give up trying yet.

 

[taricha]

From these results it appears that microcystin is toxic to corals, but on the other hand stimulates growth of at least some species of bacteria

Should we start thinking about cyanobacteria mats as problematic ecosystems and not simply a colony of problematic bacteria? Might explain in part why mats are so resilient and do not respond readily to “cures” or tweaks to nutrient levels in the water. And just maybe ecosystems are more difficult to culture than organisms, though I am not ready to give up trying yet.

That's the second reference to cyano "feeding" its associated bacteria. Another one I ran across discussed the mucus sheath of cyanobacteria being a potential food source and perhaps even a home for bacterial associates.