Cyano question ....

[Nano sapiens]

I see the same, but my interpretation is slightly different. cyano colonizes recently dead coral, recently dead rock that got cleaned/ had organisms exposed, and recently dead algae. It seems great at exploiting conditions in/around decay.

I've thought about this, too, especially when I've seen cyano quickly take over a denuded coral skeleton. But, I also see cyano quite often soon after I expose previously unexposed rock (not much organics there, but there might be enough, and little biofilm/periphyton). I agree that decaying organics help facilitate a bloom of cyano and once it blooms it takes a while before it runs out of sustenance and competitors can then move in and potentially out compete it.

 

[road_runner]

..

 

[Lasse]

My first response to cyano mats is to rise NO3 or PO4 levels if they are very low or zero. I start to disturb the mats to every evening, because they usually have their optimal distribution just before the lights go out. Why? I aware that it can be cyano mats in high nutrion system too but in my cases it has been when my nutrients approach zero. I have a theory that the magic happens below the maths and why math formation take place can be the solution to the problem because you can see at least oscillatoria in nearly all aquaria without math formation. There is some things that will happen below the maths. The space will be anoxic rather fast - promoting growth of many anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria including hydrogen sulfide producers. In water rich in DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) the growth of the hetertrophs will be speeded up (read addition of organic carbon source like NOPO-X) When dissolved NO3 is consumed or denitrificated (the adding of DOC will speed up that process too) the field is open for hydrogen sulfide producers and production of hydrogen sulfide. The hydrogen sulphide will break the bonds between metall compounds and PO4, hence release PO4 to be consumed by the Cyanobacteria. In a PO4 limited system - this will give the Cyanobacteria an advantage over other photosensitizing organisms. Now they become the orginal bus passengers - kicking out every newcomer out of the bus. The effect of adding NO3 into the aquaria against cyanobacteria as I have seen (and been reported by many others) is IMO not because lack of nitrogen, it is because it hinder the hydrogen sulphide production below the maths, hence the release of metalbound PO4. Further - the maths consist of mainly carbohydrates, hence an externally energy reserv for the cyanobacteria and possible DOC for other heterothrops. When the maths is formed and a steady anaerobic environment have been created - nitrogen fixation heterothop bacteria can thrive and fix enough of N for the need of the photosyntethic cyanobacteria, these N fixating bacteria are believed to be the origin of the heterocytes that certain cyanobacteria exhibit and they can thrive outside the cyanobacteria body too - but need anaerobic conditions. The heterocysts is common among cyanobacteria "phyto"plankton that exist in oxygen rich water. The heterocyst is a cell with very thick cellwall, hence creating anaerobic conditions inside the cell where the remains of nitrogen fixation bacteria is situated.

The key factor for us is to try too understand what trigger the formation of the maths. Triggers I have seen is zero PO4, use of DOC, sinks of much organic matter in the aquaria and newly dead corals there not a disent amount of CUC clean up the leftover fast enough. I never clean my sand and rocks but I try to have enough of CUC doing this job for me. Cyanobacteria have not been any issue for me in my present aquaria - however - I have seen small formation of mats where my CUC not are active.

According to Lyngbya. I have seen some articles that stress that this cyanobacteria is able to fixate N in spite of the fact that they lack heterocyst, however the mechanism is unknown. This cyanobacteria is IMO very abdutant in our aquarium but often - as state before - misidentified as hair algae or dinoflagellates

This is only my 2 cents - putted together from many experiences and articles as a try to have a holistic point of view

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MabuyaQ]

An interesting read on some of the cyano research that has been and is conducted on Curacao: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00338-018-1713-y
It also shows how difficult it is to identify them without genetic sequencing.

 

[Lasse]

An interesting read on some of the cyano research that has been and is conducted on Curacao: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00338-018-1713-y
It also shows how difficult it is to identify them without genetic sequencing.

. Thank you - good find

Sincerely Lasse

 

[taricha]

An interesting read on some of the cyano research that has been and is conducted on Curacao: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00338-018-1713-y
It also shows how difficult it is to identify them without genetic sequencing.

Wow. That paper is perfect for this discussion.
one of many highlights:

All incubated cyanobacterial patches exhibited an ability to fix nitrogen at higher rates during the day than during the night. This indicates that most of the nitrogen fixation was performed by phototrophs, most likely cyanobacteria. The cyanobacteria [Oscillatoria] bonnemaisonii, [Hydrocoleum] glutinosum. and [Lyngbya] majuscula, which dominated large-sized mats, have previously been shown to fix nitrogen in cultures or to be associated with a nitrogen-fixing microbial mat community. Non-heterocystous Oscillatoriales species are thought to separate the incompatible reactions of oxygenic photosynthesis and nitrogen fixation on a temporal basis, fixing mainly at night when oxygen concentrations are low. However, studies on marine microbial mats demonstrated that nitrogen fixation is stimulated by light and phototrophic microorganisms are actively involved. Stal (2012) described a Type III group of aerobic N-fixers that can combine photosynthesis and nitrogen fixation. This group comprises non-heterocystous filamentous and unicellular cyanobacteria and possesses the capacity of inducing nitrogenase and growing diazotrophically under fully aerobic conditions. In microbial mats, aerobic nitrogen-fixing non-heterocystous cyanobacteria belong predominantly to the genera Oscillatoria and Lyngbya. These genera are morphologically and phylogenetically closely related to Trichodesmium spp., which are known to fix nitrogen during the day (Capone et al. 1990). Our diurnal nitrogen fixation measurements are consistent with this hypothesis. This pattern has also been observed in cyanobacterial mats and turf communities in other coral reef systems.

 

[grantUcorals]

Thank you for everyone’s knowledge and responses!!!! I appreciate your help!!!!

 

[grantUcorals]

I have little cyano on my rocks but it does grow on my sand ...all of my cyano grows in high flow areas...I’ve tried siphoning out in water changes and it just comes back

I don’t want to use chemi clean or anything and put a band aid on the issue....
So I should just Turkey baster it off before lights go out....and should I add bacteria?? Dose nitrates? Or how should I approach it without using chemicals?

I feel like water changes are just fueling it? But maybe not

 

[grantUcorals]

Update....

I’ve been dosing nitrates and slowly raising them and the cyano is slowly improving!!

Hopefully this beats it

Thanks for all the help and advice again

 

[road_runner]

Update....

I’ve been dosing nitrates and slowly raising them and the cyano is slowly improving!!

Hopefully this beats it

Thanks for all the help and advice again

What are you dosing for nitrate?

 

[Dan_P]

My first response to cyano mats is to rise NO3 or PO4 levels if they are very low or zero. I start to disturb the mats to every evening, because they usually have their optimal distribution just before the lights go out. Why? I aware that it can be cyano mats in high nutrion system too but in my cases it has been when my nutrients approach zero. I have a theory that the magic happens below the maths and why math formation take place can be the solution to the problem because you can see at least oscillatoria in nearly all aquaria without math formation. There is some things that will happen below the maths. The space will be anoxic rather fast - promoting growth of many anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria including hydrogen sulfide producers. In water rich in DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) the growth of the hetertrophs will be speeded up (read addition of organic carbon source like NOPO-X) When dissolved NO3 is consumed or denitrificated (the adding of DOC will speed up that process too) the field is open for hydrogen sulfide producers and production of hydrogen sulfide. The hydrogen sulphide will break the bonds between metall compounds and PO4, hence release PO4 to be consumed by the Cyanobacteria. In a PO4 limited system - this will give the Cyanobacteria an advantage over other photosensitizing organisms. Now they become the orginal bus passengers - kicking out every newcomer out of the bus. The effect of adding NO3 into the aquaria against cyanobacteria as I have seen (and been reported by many others) is IMO not because lack of nitrogen, it is because it hinder the hydrogen sulphide production below the maths, hence the release of metalbound PO4. Further - the maths consist of mainly carbohydrates, hence an externally energy reserv for the cyanobacteria and possible DOC for other heterothrops. When the maths is formed and a steady anaerobic environment have been created - nitrogen fixation heterothop bacteria can thrive and fix enough of N for the need of the photosyntethic cyanobacteria, these N fixating bacteria are believed to be the origin of the heterocytes that certain cyanobacteria exhibit and they can thrive outside the cyanobacteria body too - but need anaerobic conditions. The heterocysts is common among cyanobacteria "phyto"plankton that exist in oxygen rich water. The heterocyst is a cell with very thick cellwall, hence creating anaerobic conditions inside the cell where the remains of nitrogen fixation bacteria is situated.

The key factor for us is to try too understand what trigger the formation of the maths. Triggers I have seen is zero PO4, use of DOC, sinks of much organic matter in the aquaria and newly dead corals there not a disent amount of CUC clean up the leftover fast enough. I never clean my sand and rocks but I try to have enough of CUC doing this job for me. Cyanobacteria have not been any issue for me in my present aquaria - however - I have seen small formation of mats where my CUC not are active.

According to Lyngbya. I have seen some articles that stress that this cyanobacteria is able to fixate N in spite of the fact that they lack heterocyst, however the mechanism is unknown. This cyanobacteria is IMO very abdutant in our aquarium but often - as state before - misidentified as hair algae or dinoflagellates

This is only my 2 cents - putted together from many experiences and articles as a try to have a holistic point of view

Sincerely Lasse

There is another piece of the puzzle that we have to fit: aragonite is a sink for phosphate. Not a one way sink but one that can desorb phosphate as well. And aragonite binds a lot of phosphate. Small changes in pH can release phosphate. You do not have to invoke a below mat sulfide-phosphate exchange. Just an organism growing on the surface and locally lowering the phosphate concentration can result in phosphate being desorbed to replace the missing phosphate.

@taricha thought that cyanobacteria in new systems do not appear until the phosphate bound to aragonite sand (or rock) reaches a certain level. It is not a matter that this level triggers mat formation but rather one of many conditions that promotes growth has been achieved. It would be very, very interesting if we could start monitoring the amount of bound phosphate per mL of wet sand as a system ages and note when cyanobacteria, diatoms and dinoflagellate films form.

 

[taricha]

It would be very, very interesting if we could start monitoring the amount of bound phosphate per mL of wet sand as a system ages and note when cyanobacteria, diatoms and dinoflagellate films form.

Curious if the Hanna phosphate test method would work here.
Hanna says the phosphorus checker is based on ascorbic acid method.

NEMI Method Summary - 4500-P E

4500-P B. Ascorbic Acid Method

www.nemi.gov

Maybe a tenth of a gram of carefully washed sand run through the Hanna test protocol might give up a detectable amount of phosphate if the reagent is acidic enough?

 

[Lasse]

There is another piece of the puzzle that we have to fit: aragonite is a sink for phosphate. Not a one way sink but one that can desorb phosphate as well. And aragonite binds a lot of phosphate. Small changes in pH can release phosphate.

It is also true but NO3 in the water (inclusive the pore-water), anaerobic environment below the mats and access to DOC will rise the pH because of denitrification. NO3 in the water will in this case also become a factor which is unsuitable for phosphate-thirsty cyanobacteria.

Note - forming of mats normally not start as soon as the PO4 hit zero - it more likely start after a prolonged time with zero PO4 in the water - for me - it is an indication that easy accessible PO4 sinks have been emptied. Calcium phosphate is - as you state - a rather easy accessible sink of PO4.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[taricha]

It is also true but NO3 in the water (inclusive the pore-water), anaerobic environment below the mats and access to DOC will rise the pH because of denitrification. NO3 in the water will in this case also become a factor which is unsuitable for phosphate-thirsty cyanobacteria.

So the presence of nitrate and therefore nitrate reduction processes raises the pH in/around the substrate which makes phosphate harder to acquire. Heh.
I love the absurd bank-shot mechanisms of biology. Always a couple of levels more complex than I anticipate.
Lasse, I also love that I have to read your posts a couple of times to make sure I get what's there.

 

[Lasse]

I´m not sure of either this mechanism or the other mechanism I believe in (NO3 inhibit the the hydrogen sulphide production, hence hinder PO4 and iron formation) is real or not. However - I know that denitrification rise the alkalinity and pH, I know that NO3 hinder in one or another way the formation of hydrogen sulphide in anaerobic environment and I know that hydrogen sulphide will crack the bounds between PO4 and any metal.. I only put all of this together with the fact that I and many others that NO3 addition will sometimes defeat cyanobacteria mats. and I do not think it is because of competition because there will always be NH3 / NH4 in the water now and then.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

It is also true but NO3 in the water (inclusive the pore-water), anaerobic environment below the mats and access to DOC will rise the pH because of denitrification. NO3 in the water will in this case also become a factor which is unsuitable for phosphate-thirsty cyanobacteria.

Note - forming of mats normally not start as soon as the PO4 hit zero - it more likely start after a prolonged time with zero PO4 in the water - for me - it is an indication that easy accessible PO4 sinks have been emptied. Calcium phosphate is - as you state - a rather easy accessible sink of PO4.

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, totally agree that cyanobacteria are likely happily growing well before mats become visible. As for nitrate reduction, the accepted stoichiometry of denitrification is one HCO3- is produced per nitrate consumed. The pH does not change.

In cyanobacteria cultures, increasing nitrate increases growth. We have seen claims that lowering nitrate concentration causes cyanobacteria mat formation, while you have observed increasing nitrate decreases mat formation. Both might be true, but are inconsistent with what makes cyanobacteria happy in test tubes.

Dosing nitrate can lead to a phosphate limited system and the halt of cyanobacteria growth which might correspond to what you observe. This is consistent with what I observe when the phosphate concentration becomes undetectable in Spirulina cultures. Phosphate limitation might be achieved in systems containing aragonite with sufficiently low amounts of bound phosphate ion (I am not referring to calcium phosphate, but chemisorbed PO4- - -). This might be why adding nitrate to curtail cyanobacteria growth does not work for everyone or every time.

So, @taricha and I continue to grow and challenge our cyanobacteria cultures to reveal why they perform the way they do. One thing we have learned for sure: it is not easy to grow luxurious cyanobacteria mats in test tubes. This is probably telling us something very important but neither of us speak Cyano-ish.

 

[Lasse]

but chemisorbed PO4- - -)

In which form is it chemiabsorbed? The only way of absorbing I know is through metal - PO4 bounds (calcium is a metal)
I´m not argue - i just want to know if I have missed anything

If it is a strong denitrification below the mats - the HCO3 ion added will secure a pH around 8.1 - 8.2 in the pour water (IMO)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[grantUcorals]

What are you dosing for nitrate?

The brightwell product for ultra low nutrient systems...it only raises nitrates though

 

[grantUcorals]

Lasse, totally agree that cyanobacteria are likely happily growing well before mats become visible. As for nitrate reduction, the accepted stoichiometry of denitrification is one HCO3- is produced per nitrate consumed. The pH does not change.

In cyanobacteria cultures, increasing nitrate increases growth. We have seen claims that lowering nitrate concentration causes cyanobacteria mat formation, while you have observed increasing nitrate decreases mat formation. Both might be true, but are inconsistent with what makes cyanobacteria happy in test tubes.

Dosing nitrate can lead to a phosphate limited system and the halt of cyanobacteria growth which might correspond to what you observe. This is consistent with what I observe when the phosphate concentration becomes undetectable in Spirulina cultures. Phosphate limitation might be achieved in systems containing aragonite with sufficiently low amounts of bound phosphate ion (I am not referring to calcium phosphate, but chemisorbed PO4- - -). This might be why adding nitrate to curtail cyanobacteria growth does not work for everyone or every time.

So, @taricha and I continue to grow and challenge our cyanobacteria cultures to reveal why they perform the way they do. One thing we have learned for sure: it is not easy to grow luxurious cyanobacteria mats in test tubes. This is probably telling us something very important but neither of us speak Cyano-ish.

So if dosing nitrates can work sometimes and sometimes not......what is my next step if the nitrate dosing doesn’t work??

 

[Dan_P]

In which form is it chemiabsorbed? The only way of absorbing I know is through metal - PO4 bounds (calcium is a metal)
I´m not argue - i just want to know if I have missed anything

If it is a strong denitrification below the mats - the HCO3 ion added will secure a pH around 8.1 - 8.2 in the pour water (IMO)

Sincerely Lasse

Yes, PO4 binds reversibly to aragonite and calcite surfaces. The amount adsorbed to the surface is related to the amount in solution. Decrease the solution concentration and the amount PO4 on the surface quickly re-equilibrates to a lower amount. I do not know what type of chemical bond is involved, but it is unlikely to involve the formation of calcium phosphate.

I will see what I can find to support your suggested pH under strong dentrification.