Cyanobacteria and zero (low) phosphate

[drawman]

I have a nasty case of excessively thick cyano in my 3 month old Red Sea Reefer 250. It is not a thin coat here and there it is a thick mat that covers huge sections of the tank. This is not my first rodeo but this is by far my worst case and it seems that I have a very virulent strain. I'm starting to wonder if lack of phosphate could be contributing to the cyano and allowing it outcompete and gain hold.

A little bit about my tank:
As I said it has been set up for a little over 3 months. I've used dry rock that was allowed to cure until it reached near zero PO4 with my Hanna ULR (this took several months). Tank has a Deltec 1351 Skimmer and a single Radion G3 (I will be setting up 2 radion G4s to replace it once the cyano kicks). Only other filtration is a bag of carbon that I threw in last night and a small ball of chaeto that is getting overrun by the cyano. I am running a single MP40QDw pretty hard so flow is not weak. I will be adding a gyre and hope to get a 3rd powerhead in the mix as well. I only feed a minimal amount of LRS Reef Frenzy once a day.

What I've done so far:
During the setup I did dose MB7. I am not dosing any other additives. I've done Twilliard's H202 test and per the test it does appear to be true cyanobacteria (not spirulina). I've been dosing H202 (1mL per 10 gallons) 2x/day for about a week now. This may have had a mild effect but was not yet doing the trick. To help I've started a blackout (I'm on day 4) which seems to have taken out about 2/3 of the cyano.

Before the blackout I was getting a 0 reading on my Hanna ULR. I figured it was because the cyano was taking it all up but on day 3 (yesterday) of the blackout I'm still not measuring any PO4. This leads me to believe the cyano is feeding solely off of detritus and other algae may be PO4 limited. I'm debating dosing some PO4 to let other algae gain hold once the lights go back on. Any thoughts are appreciated!

 

[ScottB]

For a host of reasons I would be dosing PO4 if Hanna gives zeros. (Unless of course I was running a tank full of GHA).

In the short run, the cyano might get worse, but 0 in the water is risking coral death and/or dinos.

What are your nitrates like? IME, higher nitrates (at least when dosing NO3) tends to reduce my PO4 fast. I don't know the chemistry of that but that relationship is very clear in both my home systems.

Are you manually removing the cyano mats often? I would. Are you vacuuming the sand? I would. Any chance that sand is nutrient loaded?

 

[drawman]

For a host of reasons I would be dosing PO4 if Hanna gives zeros. (Unless of course I was running a tank full of GHA).

In the short run, the cyano might get worse, but 0 in the water is risking coral death and/or dinos.

What are your nitrates like? IME, higher nitrates (at least when dosing NO3) tends to reduce my PO4 fast. I don't know the chemistry of that but that relationship is very clear in both my home systems.

Are you manually removing the cyano mats often? I would. Are you vacuuming the sand? I would. Any chance that sand is nutrient loaded?

Tank is actually bare bottom so I'm good on those fronts. Nitrates last I checked were solid at 5ppm from my Salifert kit.

I have coral ready to put in this tank but I've been avoiding it because I was hoping the cyano would clear.

I've been vacuuming the cyano every week with water changes. It definitely makes a big difference but the stuff has been coming right back. I can see a few resilient patches hanging on with this blackout I'm hoping they won't hold on long. Without coral I can let it ride a little longer.

 

[redwhiteandink]

I was battling Cyano for awhile and threw in the towel and just used Chemi Clean best stuff ever took it all out within 48 hours and it never grew back. I would give Chemi Clean a try if the black doesn't work but a young tank like that a cyan bloom isn't too out of the ordinary

 

[drawman]

I was battling Cyano for awhile and threw in the towel and just used Chemi Clean best stuff ever took it all out within 48 hours and it never grew back. I would give Chemi Clean a try if the black doesn't work but a young tank like that a cyan bloom isn't too out of the ordinary

Just going off of others experiences I'm not sure the Chemi Clean will do the job since I don't have spirulina. That said I will keep it in my back pocket as a last ditch option.

 

[Dan_P]

I have a nasty case of excessively thick cyano in my 3 month old Red Sea Reefer 250. It is not a thin coat here and there it is a thick mat that covers huge sections of the tank. This is not my first rodeo but this is by far my worst case and it seems that I have a very virulent strain. I'm starting to wonder if lack of phosphate could be contributing to the cyano and allowing it outcompete and gain hold.

A little bit about my tank:
As I said it has been set up for a little over 3 months. I've used dry rock that was allowed to cure until it reached near zero PO4 with my Hanna ULR (this took several months). Tank has a Deltec 1351 Skimmer and a single Radion G3 (I will be setting up 2 radion G4s to replace it once the cyano kicks). Only other filtration is a bag of carbon that I threw in last night and a small ball of chaeto that is getting overrun by the cyano. I am running a single MP40QDw pretty hard so flow is not weak. I will be adding a gyre and hope to get a 3rd powerhead in the mix as well. I only feed a minimal amount of LRS Reef Frenzy once a day.

What I've done so far:
During the setup I did dose MB7. I am not dosing any other additives. I've done Twilliard's H202 test and per the test it does appear to be true cyanobacteria (not spirulina). I've been dosing H202 (1mL per 10 gallons) 2x/day for about a week now. This may have had a mild effect but was not yet doing the trick. To help I've started a blackout (I'm on day 4) which seems to have taken out about 2/3 of the cyano.

Before the blackout I was getting a 0 reading on my Hanna ULR. I figured it was because the cyano was taking it all up but on day 3 (yesterday) of the blackout I'm still not measuring any PO4. This leads me to believe the cyano is feeding solely off of detritus and other algae may be PO4 limited. I'm debating dosing some PO4 to let other algae gain hold once the lights go back on. Any thoughts are appreciated!

How did you cycle the system, besides MB7?

Where is the detritus coming from if it is a new system? I assume you have rocks. I saw you have no substrate and there is Chaeto in the sump.

What are you adding to the aquarium everyday?

By the way, Spirulina is a cyanobacteria, though I am beginning to think it has different requirements (I am currently studying both) than the red stuff, possibly Oscillatoria (I say possibly because I had a raging cyano bloom like yours and it was a red Spirulina. I don’t whether Twilliards test distinguishes between the two reds).

 

[drawman]

How did you cycle the system, besides MB7?

Where is the detritus coming from if it is a new system? I assume you have rocks. I saw you have no substrate and there is Chaeto in the sump.

What are you adding to the aquarium everyday?

By the way, Spirulina is a cyanobacteria, though I am beginning to think it has different requirements (I am currently studying both) than the red stuff, possibly Oscillatoria (I say possibly because I had a raging cyano bloom like yours and it was a red Spirulina. I don’t whether Twilliards test distinguishes between the two reds).

Rock was cured in a tub a saltwater with a pump for about 4 months and I added some food a few times to start the cycle. Tank was setup 3-4 months ago and 2 fish were immediately added.

When I say detritus I'm not talking about much. Honestly more of the debris that I see is really from the cyano mats breaking down. There are definitely no patches of detritus in this tank.

Every day I add about a half dime size amount of LRS Reef Frenzy.

Yeah I realize that about spirulina just trying to speak in terms of what Twilliard was discussing in his threads. This stuff is voracious. I'm generally not concerned about new tank ugglies but this is intolerable. I'm curious what are you studying?

I'm on Day 5 of my blackout and there is some still hanging on in sections. At this stage I may ride it out until the weekend.

 

[bluprntguy]

According to @AlgaeBarn, apocyclops pods "exhibits a preference for diatoms and cyanobacteria." Not sure if you could dump enough of them in the tank to take care of the problem, but they could certainly help keep it under control!

A Closer Look at the Cyclopoid Copepod Apocyclops Panamensis

Marine aquarium hobbyists are coming to understand what professional aquaculturists have known for decades, copepods are a super food...

www.algaebarn.com

 

[drawman]

According to @AlgaeBarn, apocyclops pods "exhibits a preference for diatoms and cyanobacteria." Not sure if you could dump enough of them in the tank to take care of the problem, but they could certainly help keep it under control!

A Closer Look at the Cyclopoid Copepod Apocyclops Panamensis

Marine aquarium hobbyists are coming to understand what professional aquaculturists have known for decades, copepods are a super food...

www.algaebarn.com

Interestingly enough it looks like one of algaebarn's cited articles may contradict this. I looked up an article referenced because I was curious and the last word in the abstract reads "blue-green algae were rarely consumed". It would be interesting though if other pods and microfauna could help.

http://zoolstud.sinica.edu.tw/Journals/43.2/344.pdf

 

[Dan_P]

Rock was cured in a tub a saltwater with a pump for about 4 months and I added some food a few times to start the cycle. Tank was setup 3-4 months ago and 2 fish were immediately added.

When I say detritus I'm not talking about much. Honestly more of the debris that I see is really from the cyano mats breaking down. There are definitely no patches of detritus in this tank.

Every day I add about a half dime size amount of LRS Reef Frenzy.

Yeah I realize that about spirulina just trying to speak in terms of what Twilliard was discussing in his threads. This stuff is voracious. I'm generally not concerned about new tank ugglies but this is intolerable. I'm curious what are you studying?

I'm on Day 5 of my blackout and there is some still hanging on in sections. At this stage I may ride it out until the weekend.

Thank you for the information. I was trying to understand your situation and the events leading up to it. @taricha and I have been growing cyanobacteria in attempt to understand the conditions that favor vigorous mat formation. We have tested many ideas about what causes vigorous cyanobacteria growth, such as high nitrate, low nitrate, low phosphate, high phosphate, and high iron. Your situation is exactly what we are trying to cause. It is particularly interesting because you do not have a substrate.

Without the presence of substrate and having very vigorous cyanobacteria growth, you have done an experiment that removes one of the chief suspects from this mystery, the one everyone likes to blame including me. I am not saying that substrate is not involved when present in a cyanobacteria mat bloom. It might, but it does not seem to be a critical factor.

Recently, @taricha has begun to experiment with slow feeding organic matter to cyanobacteria as a way to create the conditions for luxurious mat formation like you are battling. I wonder whether the small amount of Reef Frenzy you are dosing is the organic material that developed the conditions that favored such strong growth. It is hard to see the connection until you find out that aerobic heterotrophic bacteria are associated with cyanobacteria and can form a mutualistic relationship. For example, the Reef Frenzy feeds the bacteria, it excretes excess nitrogen and phosphorous that the cyanobacteria uses, which then pays back the bacteria with metabolites the bacteria can use, and round and round it goes, seemingly an uncontrollable self-sustaining problem. The black out might work by disrupting this cyanobacteria-bacteria feeding cycle.

Again, thank you for the information and I hope you win the battle.

Dan

 

[taricha]

would love to see pics of your nuisance. You certainly created cyano mats in conditions I thought less likely to support it.
I typically think of cyano as forming on a sandbed as detritus builds up and the sand becomes enriched in some nutrients - either from debris or from just adsorbing phosphate from water. The cyano incorporates the debris into its mat sets up shop with the heterotrophic bacteria as @Dan_P mentioned and together, they rule the sand.
What you seem to be demonstrating is that cyano can establish the conditions necessary without needing sand. It can secure to bare bottom on its own and capture debris without sand and may need nothing else if the debris is enough.
It sounds like you have fairly little else - no coral - (or fish?) and If you started with dry rock, do you have many pods/inverts?

The chaeto you have is not likely to take advantage of particulate organic matter as its nutrient source. That's not really its game. So it sounds like what you are feeding is suited best for the cyano nuisance.

(This is a mix of red and green cyano I'm growing - the only "nutrients" it gets are particulate organic matter, and what PO4 it can extract from sand.)

Why you may not be detecting PO4 in the water even during a blackout that is causing the cyano mat to recede:
One - Phosphate breaking down from living matter can be locked away in large undetectable molecules at first, it takes a bit of processing before it becomes broken down to simple PO4 we can measure.
and two - you carefully drained your rocks of all PO4 at the setup, which now means they are Phosphate sponges and can absorb quite a bit.

Just a few of my thoughts.

 

[drawman]

Thank you for the information. I was trying to understand your situation and the events leading up to it. @taricha and I have been growing cyanobacteria in attempt to understand the conditions that favor vigorous mat formation. We have tested many ideas about what causes vigorous cyanobacteria growth, such as high nitrate, low nitrate, low phosphate, high phosphate, and high iron. Your situation is exactly what we are trying to cause. It is particularly interesting because you do not have a substrate.

Without the presence of substrate and having very vigorous cyanobacteria growth, you have done an experiment that removes one of the chief suspects from this mystery, the one everyone likes to blame including me. I am not saying that substrate is not involved when present in a cyanobacteria mat bloom. It might, but it does not seem to be a critical factor.

Recently, @taricha has begun to experiment with slow feeding organic matter to cyanobacteria as a way to create the conditions for luxurious mat formation like you are battling. I wonder whether the small amount of Reef Frenzy you are dosing is the organic material that developed the conditions that favored such strong growth. It is hard to see the connection until you find out that aerobic heterotrophic bacteria are associated with cyanobacteria and can form a mutualistic relationship. For example, the Reef Frenzy feeds the bacteria, it excretes excess nitrogen and phosphorous that the cyanobacteria uses, which then pays back the bacteria with metabolites the bacteria can use, and round and round it goes, seemingly an uncontrollable self-sustaining problem. The black out might work by disrupting this cyanobacteria-bacteria feeding cycle.

Again, thank you for the information and I hope you win the battle.

Dan

would love to see pics of your nuisance. You certainly created cyano mats in conditions I thought less likely to support it.
I typically think of cyano as forming on a sandbed as detritus builds up and the sand becomes enriched in some nutrients - either from debris or from just adsorbing phosphate from water. The cyano incorporates the debris into its mat sets up shop with the heterotrophic bacteria as @Dan_P mentioned and together, they rule the sand.
What you seem to be demonstrating is that cyano can establish the conditions necessary without needing sand. It can secure to bare bottom on its own and capture debris without sand and may need nothing else if the debris is enough.
It sounds like you have fairly little else - no coral - (or fish?) and If you started with dry rock, do you have many pods/inverts?

The chaeto you have is not likely to take advantage of particulate organic matter as its nutrient source. That's not really its game. So it sounds like what you are feeding is suited best for the cyano nuisance.

(This is a mix of red and green cyano I'm growing - the only "nutrients" it gets are particulate organic matter, and what PO4 it can extract from sand.)

Why you may not be detecting PO4 in the water even during a blackout that is causing the cyano mat to recede:
One - Phosphate breaking down from living matter can be locked away in large undetectable molecules at first, it takes a bit of processing before it becomes broken down to simple PO4 we can measure.
and two - you carefully drained your rocks of all PO4 at the setup, which now means they are Phosphate sponges and can absorb quite a bit.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Thanks for the reply guys. I wish I would have taken photos before the blackout but you never want to take photos when things look their worst. I'll tell you this cyano variant forms dense, opaque mats. I can only assume it was brought in through a minimal amount of tank water from my previous tank. I remember bringing in that cyano with a frag and I couldn't believe how dense it was.

@taricha the tank does have 2 medium fish and some pods but really only what was brought in through a minimal amount of tank water. There are some sponges and tubeworms growing in the sump but they need to multiply. I have coral waiting for the tank but did not want it smothered by the cyano. Not much biodiversity in this tank yet.

 

[drawman]

Finally turned the lights yesterday after a 12 day blackout. I didn't intend to go that long but I wanted to see if I could get all of the cyano to kick. There are two or three dime sized thin patches still on the glass otherwise the tank is clean. We'll see if it comes right back...

 

[drawman]

An update @Dan_P @taricha @brandon429

The blackout helped but a little cyano remained in the system. Now I am right back in the same spot with dense cyano mats. Oddly, they seem to proliferate on my one large piece of tonga branch rock (as opposed to the other pieces). It makes me wonder if there is still bound PO4 that they are able to utilize or if coincidentally that is just where it happened to develop.

I can tell you despite what the photos show this tank is not neglected. There is a lot of water movement (provided by a Tunze Stream 3, MP40, and Gyre XF 130). I do weekly water changes and rinse filter socks at that time.

I'm debating phosphate dosing again just as a test. I don't want to fuel the cyano but I'm sitting on my hands at the moment. Odd thing is this tank was started in April 2019 and I do not have any coralline growth. Tonight NO3 is at 2.5ppm (Salifert) and PO4 is at 0ppm (Hanna ULR).

 

[Bastray]

I was battling Cyano for awhile and threw in the towel and just used Chemi Clean best stuff ever took it all out within 48 hours and it never grew back. I would give Chemi Clean a try if the black doesn't work but a young tank like that a cyan bloom isn't too out of the ordinary

Same here. Fought the stuff for 6 months. Increased water changes, bare bottom tank, tons of flow, lowered no3 and po4, vacuumed off rocks, and on and on. I was reluctant to use ChemiClean but threw in the towel and used it. Gone in 2 days and hasn’t come back since. Been about 6 months. I had a tank full of corals and one or 2 of them acted up from the treatment, but the Cyano was gone which was a way bigger deal to me. I would use it again in a heartbeat, but wouldn’t wait 6 months staring at an ugly tank next time. Wasted a ton of time and money trying to fix the problem that a cheap bottle of chemiclean fixed in 2 days.

 

[brandon429]

Really great pics and documentation for the aggressive strains ++

I need to re read if this is a large inaccessible tank or a nano/ 40-50 gallons

The reason I ask is, if this water table is accessible without hesitation (can be drained into a brute can then put back as new made water, a brute worth isn't too hard to make up) then let's run a fresh rip clean. Lemme remote pilot a rip clean on that system which is cleaned via sand rinse thread plus total new water change.

Yes it's bare bottom gotcha. We just mean with the gusto of the sand rinse thread, the completeness of it.

You will not recycle nor lose anything, and if it grows back even after 3 or 4 light follow up spot siphons (we expect hand guiding work on full mass jobs) then I'll promptly list it as a defeat in sand rinse thread via direct link. Our rip cleans don't harm or derail any other system you might choose. I'm going on all chips in on can I please disassemble your whole system and subject it to surgery. Then do with the powerful growback as you will, should be a low risk operation.

 

[drawman]

Really great pics and documentation for the aggressive strains ++

I need to re read if this is a large inaccessible tank or a nano/ 40-50 gallons

The reason I ask is, if this water table is accessible without hesitation (can be drained into a brute can then put back) then let's run a fresh rip clean. Lemme remote pilot a rip clean on that system which is cleaned via sand rinse thread plus total new water change. You will not recycle nor lose anything, and if it grows back even after 3 or 4 light follow up spot siphons (we expect hand guiding work on full mass jobs) then I'll promptly list it as a defeat in sand rinse thread via direct link. Our rip cleans don't harm or derail any other system you might choose. I'm going on all chips in on can I please disassemble your whole system and subject it to surgery. Then do with the powerful growback as you will, should be a low risk operation.

So no sand in this tank and it is about 54 gallons in the display (Red Sea Reefer 250). What I was thinking of doing this weekend is taking out the most afflicted rock and administering hydrogen peroxide. Hopefully I can knock it down with this and track nutrients to see if I'm really bottomed out on PO4. I'll keep on documenting.

 

[brandon429]

its a legit option. If you dumped an entire bottle of peroxide across that rock it wouldn’t affect its bio filtration in the least. However much free ammonia the rock removes from a circulating test bin of ammonia water won’t change after a hefty dose run. Nice to have it as a battle option
Coralline will bleach though n come back.

Burn away
pls take pics we really like to see some peroxide action. Misting it out of a bottle Uber fine mist might be neat changeup too

 

[Dan_P]

An update @Dan_P @taricha @brandon429

The blackout helped but a little cyano remained in the system. Now I am right back in the same spot with dense cyano mats. Oddly, they seem to proliferate on my one large piece of tonga branch rock (as opposed to the other pieces). It makes me wonder if there is still bound PO4 that they are able to utilize or if coincidentally that is just where it happened to develop.

I can tell you despite what the photos show this tank is not neglected. There is a lot of water movement (provided by a Tunze Stream 3, MP40, and Gyre XF 130). I do weekly water changes and rinse filter socks at that time.

I'm debating phosphate dosing again just as a test. I don't want to fuel the cyano but I'm sitting on my hands at the moment. Odd thing is this tank was started in April 2019 and I do not have any coralline growth. Tonight NO3 is at 2.5ppm (Salifert) and PO4 is at 0ppm (Hanna ULR).

Beautiful pictures! Thanks. I had this type of growth over the entire aquarium. It was actually quite stunning. It was a fish only system and just waited it out.

This growth is quite amazing. My cyanobacteria cultures (different species than yours) never become this luxurious, but to achieve a thick film require high nutrient levels. I would guess that your cyanobacteria is getting more than enough phosphorous and nitrogen to grow this well. I would also assume that the localized growth suggests that it is receiving nutrients locally rather than being “fed” by what is in the water (otherwise it should be growing like this all over).

In the ideal world, we would treat half the surface with something to consume these nutrients (hydrogen peroxide, Dr. Tim’s Waste-Away) and leave the other half “as is” for a control. Not sure how to actually do this though. Maybe @taricha can suggest a practical experiment, if you were inclined to investigate. I suspect you are ready to kill it and move on. What you need is a method for “rip cleaning” surfaces, ideally in the aquarium.

 

[Dan_P]

So no sand in this tank and it is about 54 gallons in the display (Red Sea Reefer 250). What I was thinking of doing this weekend is taking out the most afflicted rock and administering hydrogen peroxide. Hopefully I can knock it down with this and track nutrients to see if I'm really bottomed out on PO4. I'll keep on documenting.

Looking forwards to results.

@taricha , @brandon429...it would be interesting if we could measure the amount of organic stuff on the rock growing cyanobacteria and compare it to rock that isn’t. Maybe biological oxygen demand would be useful. Need to think about a way to grab a rock sample.