Cycling issues..

[ZachariahBeanzz]

Thanks for all the help with cycling, I guess I should just be patient? Also, how should do the ghost feedings?

 

[Fish Fan]

Just add a pinch of fish food, like you were feeding a fish or two.

 

[Ziggy17]

The same fishless dry start I used. Took 6 weeks using MB7 and was still showing ammonia at lethal levels. Bought a bottle of Dr Tim’s and was cycled in about a week. Coincidence on the timing? Maybe. But nonetheless, the Dr Tim’s was what got me to the finish line.

 

[Fish Fan]

The same fishless dry start I used. Took 6 weeks using MB7 and was still showing ammonia at lethal levels. Bought a bottle of Dr Tim’s and was cycled in about a week. Coincidence on the timing? Maybe. But nonetheless, the Dr Tim’s was what got me to the finish line.

I'm glad the Dr. Tim's product helped you out, it is indeed what I have and would use for a fish-less cycle (though I prefer using live rock). Respectfully, I just want to ask what you mean by "toxic levels" of ammonia? I'm asking because there is some confusion about the toxicity of ammonia in our tanks. Here's a post from RHF discussing ammonia toxicity:

Ammonia is Our Friend!

Ammonia is Our Friend By Randy Holmes-Farley Yes, I know the title is provocative, and likely goes against much of what you read and hear in the reef aquarium hobby. I believe, however, that the hobby may have been harmed by the continual...

www.reef2reef.com

From this, he writes:
"4. Toxic levels of ammonia are just not reached in typical operating reef aquaria. Seeing a measured value of 0.2 ppm, whether real or test error, is not a concern. It may be a benefit."

I say this because I've seen situations where home test kits will sometimes report about 0.25 ppm for ammonia when the concentration is likely much lower. The popular API test kit comes to mind here. I've seen members cycling their tanks longer than they need to because "The ammonia isn't going to zero". I don't want you or anyone to wait longer than necessary because of either test kit error, or by being concerned with low-levels of ammonia.

In fact, many are now dosing ammonia to their tanks to help with low nitrate, and because corals can actually uptake and use some ammonia from the water directly.

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

I hope that helps!

 

[twentyleagues]

I'm glad the Dr. Tim's product helped you out, it is indeed what I have and would use for a fish-less cycle (though I prefer using live rock). Respectfully, I just want to ask what you mean by "toxic levels" of ammonia? I'm asking because there is some confusion about the toxicity of ammonia in our tanks. Here's a post from RHF discussing ammonia toxicity:

Ammonia is Our Friend!

Ammonia is Our Friend By Randy Holmes-Farley Yes, I know the title is provocative, and likely goes against much of what you read and hear in the reef aquarium hobby. I believe, however, that the hobby may have been harmed by the continual...

www.reef2reef.com

From this, he writes:
"4. Toxic levels of ammonia are just not reached in typical operating reef aquaria. Seeing a measured value of 0.2 ppm, whether real or test error, is not a concern. It may be a benefit."

I say this because I've seen situations where home test kits will sometimes report about 0.25 ppm for ammonia when the concentration is likely much lower. The popular API test kit comes to mind here. I've seen members cycling their tanks longer than they need to because "The ammonia isn't going to zero". I don't want you or anyone to wait longer than necessary because of either test kit error, or by being concerned with low-levels of ammonia.

In fact, many are now dosing ammonia to their tanks to help with low nitrate, and because corals can actually uptake and use some ammonia from the water directly.

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

I hope that helps!

Not only do coral "consume" ammonia it is actually "preferred" to nitrate. Nitrate has to be broken down inside the coral back to ammonia before it can be used same with freshwater plants and I believe same for terrestrial plants. Dont quote me on this I am not a scientist. It is not, from my understanding that much of a hardship for them to break it down its basically like us chewing our food instead of swallowing it whole, its a little easier to ingest...lol that may not be the best analogy....

I tried an "experiment" when all this ammonia dosing and whether or not plants and corals prefer it to nitrate came up here awhile back. I took a few types of slow growing plants anubias and crypts and put them in a sterile grow tank lit with a t5 same model I have on my tank they came from and I dosed ammonia. The crypts didnt do great (I think this could be from the fact they dont like their roots disturbed and they are more substrate root feeders). The anubias grew twice as fast as the tank they came from. Both are epiphytes meaning they can use their root structures to grow on hard substrates but crypts typically like their roots in substrate and anubias do not. I dont add co2 so both tanks should have the same co2 levels. I am not a big doser in my fw tanks the plants are more "background noise". I did pick up some brightwell plant trace elements being sure to omit nitrate bearing ones, phosphate and potassium being top of the list. I believe feeding the fish add these in adequate amounts for what I am typically doing in my tanks. I said "experiment" because none of this was properly tested for or setup. I am sure I introduced bacteria when I put in the plants and I can test for nitrate and find it in the water it was low but detectable. I followed dosing instructions for ammonia from the plant forum Randy had posted in one of his ammonia dosing threads. What did this accomplish....a few anubias that have increased growth over a few in my actual tank and some crypts on drift wood (side quest) that are doing quite well.

 

[Fish Fan]

Not only do coral "consume" ammonia it is actually "preferred" to nitrate. Nitrate has to be broken down inside the coral back to ammonia before it can be used same with freshwater plants and I believe same for terrestrial plants. Dont quote me on this I am not a scientist. It is not, from my understanding that much of a hardship for them to break it down its basically like us chewing our food instead of swallowing it whole, its a little easier to ingest...lol that may not be the best analogy....

I tried an "experiment" when all this ammonia dosing and whether or not plants and corals prefer it to nitrate came up here awhile back. I took a few types of slow growing plants anubias and crypts and put them in a sterile grow tank lit with a t5 same model I have on my tank they came from and I dosed ammonia. The crypts didnt do great (I think this could be from the fact they dont like their roots disturbed and they are more substrate root feeders). The anubias grew twice as fast as the tank they came from. Both are epiphytes meaning they can use their root structures to grow on hard substrates but crypts typically like their roots in substrate and anubias do not. I dont add co2 so both tanks should have the same co2 levels. I am not a big doser in my fw tanks the plants are more "background noise". I did pick up some brightwell plant trace elements being sure to omit nitrate bearing ones, phosphate and potassium being top of the list. I believe feeding the fish add these in adequate amounts for what I am typically doing in my tanks. I said "experiment" because none of this was properly tested for or setup. I am sure I introduced bacteria when I put in the plants and I can test for nitrate and find it in the water it was low but detectable. I followed dosing instructions for ammonia from the plant forum Randy had posted in one of his ammonia dosing threads. What did this accomplish....a few anubias that have increased growth over a few in my actual tank and some crypts on drift wood (side quest) that are doing quite well.

Agreed with the above post 100%. Corals (and freshwater plants) can use nitrate, but it requires them to put energy into converting the nitrate into a useable form. Ammonia can be used directly without the need for an "energy expensive" process first.

Great post!

 

[Ziggy17]

.25 at 8.3 PH with zero nitrate, after 6 weeks. IMO, that’s very likely toxic to to the fish I wanted to stock, and the tank was not cycled.

Remember, no coral. Dry tank start. Some don’t care about throwing fish into a tank with that much ammonia, but I do.

I dose ammonium daily, but that’s for a different thread. It likely has ammonia at .1 as the norm, which I’m fine with.
The purpose of my post was to advise the OP that Dr Tim’s accelerated/completed the cycle over MB7, not so much get into the benefits of ammonia and coral. Respectfully :)

 

[Fish Fan]

.25 at 8.3 PH with zero nitrate, after 6 weeks. IMO, that’s very likely toxic to to the fish I wanted to stock, and the tank was not cycled.

Remember, no coral. Dry tank start. Some don’t care about throwing fish into a tank with that much ammonia, but I do.

I dose ammonium daily, but that’s for a different thread. The purpose of my post was to advise the OP that Dr Tim’s accelerated/completed the cycle over MB7, not so much get into the benefits of ammonia and coral. Respectfully :)

Thank you for your reply!

I understand your concern, and please don't believe me Please see the links I posted above from Randy Holmes-Farley. Dr. Holmes-Farley is a PhD level chemist, who has also been a reef tank authority for at least 30 years. In the link above, he suggests that ammonia at 0.20 ppm isn't toxic.

We also know that corals can directly uptake ammonia from the water, so ~0.25 ppm ammonia may actually be helpful if one is keeping corals.

I'll also mention that having been a part of A LOT of threads here on cycling new tanks, we often see test kits like AP,I for example, reporting 0.25 ppm ammonia when it's likely much lower. Test kit error is a reason I believe that people cycle their tanks longer than they have to.

I hope that helps!

 

[Should I]

add a bottle of fritz turbo start 900 the next day you will be cycled

 

[Ziggy17]

Thank you for your reply!

I understand your concern, and please don't believe me. Please see the links I posted above from Randy Holmes-Farley. Dr. Holmes-Farley is a PhD level chemist, who has also been a reef tank authority for at least 30 years. In the link above, he suggests that ammonia at 0.20 ppm isn't toxic.

We also know that corals can directly uptake ammonia from the water, so ~0.25 ppm ammonia may actually be helpful if one is keeping corals.

I'll also mention that having been a part of A LOT of threads here on cycling new tanks, and we often see test kits like AP,I for example, reporting 0.25 ppm ammonia when it's likely much lower. Test kit error is a reason I believe that people cycle their tanks longer than they have to.

I hope that helps!

Yeah, I used Salifert and confirmed with my LFS that uses the spin disk.

But yeah, I wouldn’t put a fish in .25 with little or not enough nitrifiers to break it down to safe level. So while .2-.25 maybe safe for fish in an established tank, I’m not sure that holds the same truth in a new start up. It’s kinda the basis of how we determine if a tank is cycled, and ultimately , when it’s safe to add fish. Like you, I’m not a PHD from Harvard either :)

 

[Fish Fan]

Yeah, I used Salifert and confirmed with my LFS that uses the spin disk.

But yeah, I wouldn’t put a fish in .25 with little or not enough nitrifiers to break it down to safe level. So while .2-.25 maybe safe for fish in an established tank, I’m not sure that holds the same truth in a new start up. It’s kinda the basis of how we determine if a tank is cycled, and ultimately , when it’s safe to add fish. Like you, I’m not a PHD from Harvard either :)

No argument there friend, I'm not a PhD or even close

By all means, do what makes you feel comfortable. I'm just trying to share some of the newer information and insight we have into ammonia that is a bit different from the traditional advice

Thanks again for your replies!

 

[Ziggy17]

No argument there friend, I'm not a PhD or even close

By all means, do what makes you feel comfortable. I'm just trying to share some of the newer information and insight we have into ammonia that is a bit different from the traditional advice

Thanks again for your replies!

It’s always appreciated my friend. :)
progress follows debate.

 

[Fish Fan]

It’s always appreciated my friend. :)
progress follows debate.

Agreed!

Thanks for your replies!

 

[ZachariahBeanzz]

I’ve made some progress! I just tested the water, and while the ammonia still hasn’t dropped (I think it’s a bit higher due to the added food), my nitrite has increased to around 0.5 ppm from 0.2. So it looks like adding the fish food definitely helped. I’m thinking about adding another bottle of either Fritz or Dr. Tim’s to hopefully get through a bit faster.

 

[Should I]

It’s always appreciated my friend. :)
progress follows debate.

is ur ammonia 0.25? you do know some test kits are incapable of showing 0 and ur tank is probs cycled if so

even my hanna ammonia was incapable of showing 0 and always read 0.25

oops sorry this was aimed at OP not you ziggy :) for some reason it quoted you instead of OP lol

 

[twentyleagues]

is ur ammonia 0.25? you do know some test kits are incapable of showing 0 and ur tank is probs cycled if so

even my hanna ammonia was incapable of showing 0 and always read 0.25

oops sorry this was aimed at OP not you ziggy :) for some reason it quoted you instead of OP lol

As of Friday it was around 2.0ppm definitely too high. Seems really slow going though for either dr Tims or microbacter. Fritz may be an answer or time.

 

[Zarekk]

Hey there!
I’ve been cycling my Innovative Marine 20-gallon for a little over 3 weeks now. I started with 2ppm of ammonia on day one, along with a full bottle of Dr. Tim’s One and Only. Since then, I’ve been dosing MicroBacter7 daily. I’m using dry rock and dry sand, and haven’t added any more ammonia since that initial dose, but it looks like the level might have gone up a bit, possibly over 2ppm. I’m also seeing around 0.2ppm nitrite, but still no detectable nitrate.

I know cycling takes time and patience, especially with dry rock, but just wanted to check in and see if this sounds about right or if there’s anything I might be missing. Any insight would be appreciated!

I had the same problem. I dont know and someone correct me if im wrong, but ive used dr tim’s one and only reef and it still takes a while (usually a 1 month cycle) after using the dosing instruction for his one and only and ammonium chloride. I did get nitrates after 3-4 weeks but ammonia didnt cut down…
I now just prefer to use fritz turbo start 900. Stuff seems to work wonders for me… and as usually. Its stinky!

 

[Should I]

i would just take the hit get some fritz tubro 900 and watch that ammonia go to 0-0.25 the next day

 

[twentyleagues]

I had the same problem. I dont know and someone correct me if im wrong, but ive used dr tim’s one and only reef and it still takes a while (usually a 1 month cycle) after using the dosing instruction for his one and only and ammonium chloride. I did get nitrates after 3-4 weeks but ammonia didnt cut down…
I now just prefer to use fritz turbo start 900. Stuff seems to work wonders for me… and as usually. Its stinky!

Seems weird that ammonia would not decline but nitrates would increase. Did you test for nitrites? A little nitrite can test as a lot of nitrates.

 

[ZachariahBeanzz]

I had the same problem. I dont know and someone correct me if im wrong, but ive used dr tim’s one and only reef and it still takes a while (usually a 1 month cycle) after using the dosing instruction for his one and only and ammonium chloride. I did get nitrates after 3-4 weeks but ammonia didnt cut down…
I now just prefer to use fritz turbo start 900. Stuff seems to work wonders for me… and as usually. Its stinky!

Yeah, hopefully when I add another bottle, it’ll cut down my ammonia. And yes! I used the Fritz for my other tank, and it smells like no other