Cycling

[Fish Fan]

your cycle is interesting because you've surpassed the known wait time already charted that covers bacterial deposition from bottle bac alone, and live rock transfer bacteria alone/much less paired and fed.

ergo, if you change out all the water you're leaving behind bioslicks with bacteria and you're not worrying about having to make a bunch of wastewater read as compliant on kits we can likely find involved in tank misread events by searching.

if you do a full water change, and never test for ammonia and nitrite again on this system, you'll be off and reefing. if you choose to still test a bunch of mixed wastewater, then expect a long wait to arrive exactly where you are now.

the benefit of using updated cycling science is that by knowing your start date exact vs open-ended wait, you can spend all this time reading about fallow and qt disease preps in the disease forum, before you make use of your ready tank. if you make use of your ability to carry fish, which is in place, then you become part of the disease forum help threads in eight months and it wouldn't matter if you did wait until all the nitrite and ammonia was zero three more weeks from now.

your tank can't be made safer for fish by waiting any longer than you've waited. change the water, your cycle is done if you had rocks stacked in the system as we do.

there are no examples of a fifteen day failed cycle using blended live and dry rock and bottle bac and feed on this entire site, that factors in making a call about your cycle in my opinion.

waiting longer can't make your tank safer for fish. actual fish preps are what make it safe

post a full tank shot was curious on the ratios

Brandon, you have helped me in the past and I absolutely acknowledge and respect your knowledge of the reefing hobby. But the OP posted this in the "New to saltwater" forum, so it's safe to assume the OP is new to the hobby. I don't disagree with what you're describing, and I follow what you're saying, but given that this is a new reefer, wouldn't it be safer and easier for them to just be patient and wait for the biofilter to catch up, which is a tried and true solution?

To me, it's like learning a musical instrument or anything else. Learn the fundamentals, build on the fundamentals, then break the rules. It's the very rare individual that can go from beginner to braking the rules in one step. Just my thoughts...

 

[brandon429]

that was well written

before I answer, a brief request: show me a thread where the biofilter was rushed and there were consequences. where fish died, the tank crashed, due to rushing

we are positioning a called start date/currently ready/on a safety gradient

so I request to see the endpoint, a literal reef tank thread where fish were killed by verified non ammonia control.

I searched for some examples on google, it's actually very hard to find ones where fish died. all the failed cycle example threads for thousands of pages are api reading as too green, and someone says that's a broken cycle.

I realize the entire reefing world online is api based and we're never going to get to the bottom of an ammonia challenge with one, but let's see the thread. we'll rule out disease and acclimation error potential, given those two controls if ammonia can be positioned as truly the killer in a reef display cycle I'll entertain the idea.

how far, wide, and rare will we have to search to find a single example of a non-ready biofilter in a reef tank via initial bioload loss, that's the real question

(if it turns out there's no such risk, no consequences can be found of reasonable application or recency, we're dealing in strictly a disease risk scenario in all reef tank cycles that use similar means)

*I honestly think your post was well written that's what lots of readers were thinking. anyone who is going to try and buck the system needs to qualify all statements agreed. really good post above FFan.

The most important advice I can give a new reefer is don't worry about your cycle at day 13 on a bottle bac setup, worry about disease solely. I came to that conclusion having never seen a verified rushed reef tank filter setup in tens of thousands of examples worked in threads, not counting the searched ones.

Waiting an extra three weeks can't hurt at all, spend that whole time reading / not testing. you are past the point where testing ammonia, nitrite and nitrate can help you make start date decisions. the disease protocol sets the date you add fish, and how many you add.

 

[library 112]

your cycle is interesting because you've surpassed the known wait time already charted that covers bacterial deposition from bottle bac alone, and live rock transfer bacteria alone/much less paired and fed.

ergo, if you change out all the water you're leaving behind bioslicks with bacteria and you're not worrying about having to make a bunch of wastewater read as compliant on kits we can likely find involved in tank misread events by searching.

if you do a full water change, and never test for ammonia and nitrite again on this system, you'll be off and reefing. if you choose to still test a bunch of mixed wastewater, then expect a long wait to arrive exactly where you are now.

the benefit of using updated cycling science is that by knowing your start date exact vs open-ended wait, you can spend all this time reading about fallow and qt disease preps in the disease forum, before you make use of your ready tank. if you make use of your ability to carry fish, which is in place, then you become part of the disease forum help threads in eight months and it wouldn't matter if you did wait until all the nitrite and ammonia was zero three more weeks from now.

your tank can't be made safer for fish by waiting any longer than you've waited. change the water, your cycle is done if you had rocks stacked in the system as we do.

there are no examples of a fifteen day failed cycle using blended live and dry rock and bottle bac and feed on this entire site, that factors in making a call about your cycle in my opinion.

waiting longer can't make your tank safer for fish. actual fish preps are what make it safe

post a full tank shot was curious on the ratios

Thank you, will post a picture in a few days!

 

[library 112]

In your first post you mentioned that you're using Dr. Tim's. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think you said if it was his One and Only bottled bacteria or his ammonium chloride or both (I'm assuming it's both?). Maybe I missed it, but I don't think you've let us know. Please let us know if you're using Dr. Tim's One and Only and his ammonium chloride, I think this would help others (read: smarter than me) better help you.

In my non-expert opinion:

• If you're using Dr. Tim's One and Only AND his ammonium chloride, you don't need anything else.
• If you've added Dr. Tim's One and Only but are NOT adding his ammonium chloride, then by all means add your cube of food and the phyto.

We know at the least you added some rock rubble from your LFS's existing system, so you inoculated your tank with the desirable bacteria, which are producing the nitrates you're seeing, so you're fine either way. Patients is all that's needed now. By the time we all go back and forth hashing this out, your tank will be cycled ;-)

Keep in mind, some have reported that their dry rock and sand caused an increase in ammonia, and I seem to have experienced this first hand. It is thought to be at least possible that even dry rock can have organic material in or on it, which starts to decay once wet, causing an ammonia spike.

Additionally, I'm not sure how you're measuring your ammonia. Our hobby-level test kits are not lab grade science, and many R2R members will call out the inaccuracy of ammonia tests including the popular API and Red Sea kits. In my opinion, all these hobby-level kits are best for offering an indication of what's going on or to identify trends over time, not to establish a hard number.

But my point is, if you're test kit is telling you that you are at or around 2.50ppm ammonia, you are at the high safe limit for the biofilter, and you should stop adding ammonia from any source, whatever it is - ammonium chloride, fish food, your rock, etc. In time, your biofilter will catch up.

I hope that helps!

Thank you, I did Dr Tims One and only with the ammonia 4 drops per gal one time. I have done a few of the other things you mentioned. Stopped ghost feeding and started spacing the phyto out to every other day. Cant test for ammonia currently out get refill from BRS on Wednesday, the want for fish is real lol. I will stop the phyto all togeather and test on wednesday and see what we get. I guess my other anxiousness is my main LFS is getting in a huge shipment of coral and fish which I was really hoping to be done on but I wont add unless its all right....

 

[library 112]

So here is some last questions:
I am getting what most are putting down...Yet,

I have a UV light that I have not turned on yet, I have a refugium that I have not seeded and started yet, I have a skimmer not turned on yet.... Do i keep these off? That has been my advice in conversations or do I turn them on? You guys are great and for my first post I did not expect such a welcome and great debate/advice.

 

[Fish Fan]

Thank you, I did Dr Tims One and only with the ammonia 4 drops per gal one time. I have done a few of the other things you mentioned. Stopped ghost feeding and started spacing the phyto out to every other day. Cant test for ammonia currently out get refill from BRS on Wednesday, the want for fish is real lol. I will stop the phyto all togeather and test on wednesday and see what we get. I guess my other anxiousness is my main LFS is getting in a huge shipment of coral and fish which I was really hoping to be done on but I wont add unless its all right....

Again, I'm not an expert by any means, so others may suggest you can move ahead more quickly. I get the desire to get fish and corals and everything else, but generally speaking I think most members here would advise you to go slowly with your stocking. Personally, I would make sure your nitrogen cycle was complete before adding any more fish or corals. I would suggest you get your test kits this week and do some further testing. You want to see your ammonia at zero and your nitrates rising.

 

[Fish Fan]

So here is some last questions:
I am getting what most are putting down...Yet,

I have a UV light that I have not turned on yet, I have a refugium that I have not seeded and started yet, I have a skimmer not turned on yet.... Do i keep these off? That has been my advice in conversations or do I turn them on? You guys are great and for my first post I did not expect such a welcome and great debate/advice.

Keep your UV off during your cycle. The UV damages bacteria, preventing them from reproducing. While the majority of nitrifying bacteria grow on surfaces like your rocks and sand, and are not just free floating in the water column, it's still a good idea to keep your UV off during the cycle when you're trying to grow beneficial bacteria.

What do you mean by not seeding your refugium yet? If your 'fuge is plumbed into your system and getting water from the main tank, it's seeded and just needs time to grow.

Keep your skimmer off at this point too. Get it running when you are seeing your nitrates go up, and therefore have a need to strip out extra organics before they breakdown and lead to increased nitrates.

I'd also advise keeping your tank's light off during this initial ammonia cycle. Unless you already added something photosynthetic like a coral, you don't need your lights at this time. Having the lights on will just feeds nuisance algae. Feel free to turn your lights on for a few minutes to admire your tank, just don't let them rip all day at this point.

Also, I'd suggest picking either dosing ammonium chloride or ghost feeding for your source of ammonia, but not both, and don't exceed 2.50ppm ammonia concentration either way. I'd prefer the ammonium chloride as it's easy to dispense and you get predictable results. With ghost feeding, you're kind of guessing a little at how much ammonia your food equates too, plus it's adding extra phosphates, which I don't personally think you need right now, but a more experienced reefer, @Garf , mentioned that phosphate may help your cycle earlier in this thread.

I think most of us here are very happy to try to help each other where we can. I have received so much help from other members here that I do my best to help others with what I've learned. That said, other more experienced reefers may have more solid advice for you. But I hope I'm at least some help to you and I hope I'm offering generally accepted good advice

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

The UV damages bacteria, preventing them from reproducing.

This is not true. The bulk of your nitrifying bacteria is not in the water column.

 

[Garf]

mentioned that phosphate may help your cycle earlier in this thread.

The phyto or the f/2 would have taken care of that. Time to leave the tank alone, see how fast the ammonia drops, I'm guessing pretty quick if the phyto and frozen was a daily dose.

Do i keep these off

I would, just keep everything aerated, wet and warm.

 

[Fish Fan]

This is not true. The bulk of your nitrifying bacteria is not in the water column.

I did actually mention that. But I had always read that it's still a good idea to keep the UV off during the cycle. Your thoughts?

My original thought:

Keep your UV off during your cycle. The UV damages bacteria, preventing them from reproducing. While the majority of nitrifying bacteria grow on surfaces like your rocks and sand, and are not just free floating in the water column, it's still a good idea to keep your UV off during the cycle when you're trying to grow beneficial bacteria.

 

[library 112]

Getting close I think. Nitrites spiked this weekend but ammonia is dropping pretty fast now. My gut says about two more weeks.

 

[Garf]

Getting close I think. Nitrites spiked this weekend but ammonia is dropping pretty fast now. My gut says about two more weeks.

Ammonia probably won't go to zero anyway. However, please keep updating this thread if you keep testing, congrats.

 

[Fish Fan]

Getting close I think. Nitrites spiked this weekend but ammonia is dropping pretty fast now. My gut says about two more weeks.

Nice looking setup! I'm sure you'll be fine. You really can't stop the nitrogen cycle, it will happen over time, so you're definitely on the right track?

What are you using to test your parameters?

 

[library 112]

Nice looking setup! I'm sure you'll be fine. You really can't stop the nitrogen cycle, it will happen over time, so you're definitely on the right track?

What are you using to test your parameters?

I have the Hanna Testers

 

[library 112]

Ammonia dropped to .02 and only Nitrites and Calcium are High as of today. Getting Very Close and will probably take the chance on a few things come next weekend. Thanks for all the help

 

[library 112]

Last post probably on this thread. Only parameter slightly off is calcium if anyone has advice. I am constantly 520. All others now in check at week 7 I think. We have a clean up crew 12 small frag corals and a pair of wild caught clowns. Really coming together and the tank is nice and clear. Thank you all for getting me here!