Detritus is it as bad as some make out?

[Subsea]

My question was how many though

If your tank was lacking biodiversity after twenty seven trips to a local tidal mud flat teeming with a billion amphipods I might accuse you of keeping too many mandarins heh

The majority of us are landlocked, ipsf closing, we’re diversity doomed pretty much

Yes, I have used ipsf. I get much more diversity from diver collected, Gulf of Mexico, live rock that is aquacultured as a sustainable source. Tampa Bay Saltwater & Gulf Live Rock are two such sources.

http://www.gulfliverock.com/premium-decorative-rock.html

 

[Subsea]

The waste in a large system full of micro and macro fauna will be broken down again and again, and eventually one is left with mineralized deposits and a nearly inert material (aka 'mulm'). Since a high rate of substrate turnover over time can occur in such a system, the substrate can remain friable/porous allowing proper advection into the substrate to maintain bacteria productivity/efficiency. This was the core foundation of the DSB idea as promoted by Shimek and as you've shown by example it can work in a large system when the aquarist has an understanding of how to maintain such infauna and is willing to maintain/promote proper conditions therein.

From what I've seen over three decades in the hobby, most aquarists are unable to sustain such a system long term due to a tendency towards smaller system size and 'must have' organisms that can quickly clear out most beneficial detritivores. This, along with the oxygen depletion concerns if the power goes out, are likely the main reasons why the DSB is no longer as common in the hobby as it once was.

The take-away out of all this for me is that the physical disturbance of the substrate is a most important aspect of reef aquarium maintenance if one wants a system to last long-term. Whether it occurs slowly, but steadily, via infauna action or is accomplished quickly by stirring/vacuuming by the aquarist, keeping the substrate (sand, rock, etc.) relatively unclogged is essential IMO.

Ralph.

I have always enjoyed and learned from your post. Your point about “must have” organisms clearing out diversity in detrivore & herbivore janitors in sand beds, addresses the point of why sandbeds crash. Without proper maintenance, sandbeds crash. Each of us that operates a reef tank is the Master Gardner.

If we include janitors to do the work and feed the system, from my point of view, that is a good thing. If we choose to eliminate micro fauna & fana, then as Master Gardner get out the vacuum cleaner and do the necessary cleaning. It is as simple as that.

Laissez les bonne temps roulee,
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

detritus is the cause of OTS in aquariums, and without your offsets, your tank would go eutrophic and not be 40. old tank syndrome has some pretty good published works on the web under the subject. we beat it too, solely with detritus control.

you have calculated safe amnts of 40 yr old detritus, not 40 yrs worth.



no doubt, detritus is marine snow, but we now have retail replacement feeds to take the place of that.

This thread here shows the risk of detritus
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


detritus is a giant liability unless its planned for, and offset, carefully, then its feed reserves.

that duality is how it should be explained imo. its good in some systems, unless you stick your hand in there and slosh things around and then let the cloud flow, then its horrible.


to know the true effects of stored detritus, try to make an old nano reef keep its detritus and stay alive. remove the dilution/speed up the end results




detritus in place isn't all bad, but people rarely stay in one place Paul for as long, and the clean tanks will always beat the dirty ones where any type of action on the system is required.

during a power outage, a detritus stored tank is under MUCH more risk than an organically clean one, BOD readings would be much worse than a bare bottom system with low organic stores. all the extra aerobic bac farmed on detritus substrate are fine as long as the machine stays running...I know you already weathered an outage as well, but these are facts regarding high organic systems and the double sided coin involved. if the generator that runs a tank during a power outage runs out, that's when BOD matters so greatly, fair angle to consider for those who live in prone areas, don't farm detritus as a safety hedge.
if you are going to be relocating anytime within the life of your tank, then low detritus can be a big safety hedge.

I cannot locate the benefit detritus actually gives to a system, we have feed systems to replace it so that nutrients arent located packed into a sandbed.

if worms and pods are the goal, then a simple remote sandbed would provide that, and be pre filtered of the massive fish waste a display sees. in my nano reefs I don't care about worms and pods as much as I care about coralline covered rock and coral export, detritus lends no benefit to those two goals so I keep it out just my way.

Brandon,
Of all the post you have made on this thread, this makes the most logic to me. I agree 99% with this post.

detritus is the cause of OTS in aquariums, and without your offsets, your tank would go eutrophic and not be 40. old tank syndrome has some pretty good published works on the web under the subject. we beat it too, solely with detritus control.

you have calculated safe amnts of 40 yr old detritus, not 40 yrs worth.



no doubt, detritus is marine snow, but we now have retail replacement feeds to take the place of that.

This thread here shows the risk of detritus
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


detritus is a giant liability unless its planned for, and offset, carefully, then its feed reserves.

that duality is how it should be explained imo. its good in some systems, unless you stick your hand in there and slosh things around and then let the cloud flow, then its horrible.


to know the true effects of stored detritus, try to make an old nano reef keep its detritus and stay alive. remove the dilution/speed up the end results




detritus in place isn't all bad, but people rarely stay in one place Paul for as long, and the clean tanks will always beat the dirty ones where any type of action on the system is required.

during a power outage, a detritus stored tank is under MUCH more risk than an organically clean one, BOD readings would be much worse than a bare bottom system with low organic stores. all the extra aerobic bac farmed on detritus substrate are fine as long as the machine stays running...I know you already weathered an outage as well, but these are facts regarding high organic systems and the double sided coin involved. if the generator that runs a tank during a power outage runs out, that's when BOD matters so greatly, fair angle to consider for those who live in prone areas, don't farm detritus as a safety hedge.
if you are going to be relocating anytime within the life of your tank, then low detritus can be a big safety hedge.

I cannot locate the benefit detritus actually gives to a system, we have feed systems to replace it so that nutrients arent located packed into a sandbed.

if worms and pods are the goal, then a simple remote sandbed would provide that, and be pre filtered of the massive fish waste a display sees. in my nano reefs I don't care about worms and pods as much as I care about coralline covered rock and coral export, detritus lends no benefit to those two goals so I keep it out just my way.

Brandon,
I have read your many post on this thread. This post is spot on with the one exception where you say retail foods now available take the place of any benefits of detritus. Yet, the only benefit you indicate is that detritus is “Marine Snow” as food for coral. You ignore the food webs of micro fauna and flora that thrive on detritus and become in tank live food with unlimited shelf life. When you say detritus is locked up in the sandbed, most interpret that as it is ready to explode. Micro fauna & fana feed on detritus until all that is left is inert mineral form.

PSS. TWO EXCEPTIONS. Detritus does not cause Old Tank Syndrome

 

[Subsea]

Lack of diversity causes OTS. Just as in a “climax hard wood forest”, dominat species dominate.

https://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/what_is_a_climax_forest

 

[brandon429]

The reason I have to disagree about detritus causing old tank syndrome is that’s how pico reefers beat ots. Nobody else has designed an equal test

The reason pico reefs live uninvaded and long past their expiry date (someone set up a dense stocked pico, dsb, don’t touch the sandbed, don’t change the water more than 20% etw, and by month 36 you now have a cyano, not coral reef) is due to detritus management


All the tanks I fix, that nobody else will fix and make links to, detritus caused issues.



Someone is going to have to make and post a counter test using other peoples work to show me. That’s the standard I used to make my claim.



Until then, we (thousands of pico reefers) have the only proof... the rest is large diluted tankers with tanks that take three decades to register what a one gallon with a dsb will register by year five, that’s what I mean by the proof.

Paul has already saved large tankers that work in wondering about pent up detritus since he mass exports his tank... it’s not been hands off at all for 40 yrs. it’s been hands on, or it would be dead, due to detritus.
Even with his mud flat animal exchange... the natural sea water, if he wasn’t doing that vacuuming even the rugf wouldn’t offset what he knows detritus causes or he wouldn’t expend the effort.


The pro dsb/no rinse crowd needs to advise a few pico reefs to be set up for others, guided through early stages and final stages of aging, then show me them links.

 

[Subsea]

@brandon429
Sounds like apples and oranges to me.

When I asked you earlier, would your clean system support flame scallops, sea apples and NPS. I got no answer.

When you say their are no scientific studies that show detritus to be inert mineral, I beg to differ. Search municipal wastewater treatment using anarobic digesters to breakdown detritus.

 

[brandon429]

The effects on the hobby, the waste of animals and rocks to do overs and lost tanks a few years in, that’s the effect of ots and detritus on the hobby, the select few advising it aren’t the ones cleaning up the mess, or they’d have a work link. They provide theories that large tankers with dilution can replicate, for a few years.


I’ve already back linked two works upcoming on the prior page, and that's only in 24 hours

I kicked up this thread to ask the passionate what they’ve done since May on the matter

Nada


You guys easily have a way to change this trend. Go solicit some work, link it. You could be guiding a new tank, or fixing an old one, any forum. They’re out there asking for help


I want you guys to back your claims with more than one recent work link because some of those tanks will be killed by detritus if the keeper makes a bad move during your fix, and you have to anticipate their mistakes in work threads as well... it’s humbling to try and affect someone else’s tank, x5 examples including really bad invasions on blackened sandbeds, vs make our paradigms off just our home tanks.


a works thread, a large old continually running fully accountable thread of others challenges...make one of these using alternate means if someone wants to convince me
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


Paul linked an action thread of dealing with detritus, not ignoring it, that supports my side (though I’m positive he didn’t intend for me to spin it that way heh)
I realize nobody else cares like I do about link work and it’s not likely to be validated as a claim proof, but links are how we can rate trends and they work well for that

I’m not interested in changing peoples mind who post here, I’m interested in changing my own mind so that when I’m contacted regularly to fix a tank, I’m applying and advising the best science of the day. I have not been swayed, the actual work I’m about to back edit into the prior page uses detritus management to save and preserve those tanks.

 

[Paul B]

Paul has already saved large tankers that work in wondering about pent up detritus since he mass exports his tank... it’s not been hands off at all for 40 yrs. it’s been hands on, or it would be dead, due to detritus.
Even with his mud flat animal exchange... the natural sea water, if he wasn’t doing that vacuuming even the rugf wouldn’t offset what he knows detritus causes or he wouldn’t expend the effort.

Apparently I didn't vacuum my gravel very good or I would not have a half inch layer of tightly packed detritus on my UG filter plates that totally replaced the gravel.
Most of those places I could not reach and I don't think my hour or so a year stirring my gravel had much impact on the tank. I didn't stir it so much to remove detritus because my system depends on detritus and I am trying to allow it to accumulate now to stabilize my system that I just moved. I stirred my gravel once or twice a year just so it wouldn't clog. I like detritus, but I also like Tee shirts, I just don't want them blocking the entrance to my bedroom.

Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing as we all know.

 

[brandon429]

Easy test



Do not ever vacuum this one

 

[brandon429]

your dilution and offsets for waste will still allow years before eutrophication sets in, but not decades

branch out and make some work in smaller tanks using your approach, that’s how we can see it applied vs having to wait on your home tank which didn’t have the old detritus moved and placed back under the bed




You did a fresh start for a reason, to buy time

Find some nano reefs online that are in distress, no dilution examples, and link how you guided the fix

we need nano examples so we don’t have to wait years to find an old tank relative to its size and metabolism, and so we are using non dilution that way if you mess up advice they’ll be posting the anger of a recycled/lost tank. Working solely from the example of a large home tank insulates claim makers from accountability. Work done in others challenge tanks hones big time

 

[brandon429]

I better log down the spot my links are going to be back edited into

Post #190 is it

This thread is going to fill up with type for sure on the next ten pages, but post 190 will be me dispensing then taking my own medicine for proof one way or another, working in others tanks, challenge tanks where accountability runs full on. Each fix will be linked back to the biology of old tank syndrome and how detritus is fueling the invasions they are growing on purpose.

Scott was concerned we’d be having them rinse their tanks forever, no, that’s just in remediation to total detritus storage as they’re presenting a full on invasion. Once coralline and coral take over real estate, and if the sandbed has an export plan in place, they can enjoy cruise control. My work links are the physical change point for the invaded, introducing them to simple hand guiding which they were told to never do, by advisors who didn’t stick around for the muddy cleanup.

 

[Subsea]

The effects on the hobby, the waste of animals and rocks to do overs and lost tanks a few years in, that’s the effect of ots and detritus on the hobby, the select few advising it aren’t the ones cleaning up the mess, or they’d have a work link. They provide theories that large tankers with dilution can replicate, for a few years.


I’ve already back linked two works upcoming on the prior page, and that's only in 24 hours

I kicked up this thread to ask the passionate what they’ve done since May on the matter

Nada


You guys easily have a way to change this trend. Go solicit some work, link it. You could be guiding a new tank, or fixing an old one, any forum. They’re out there asking for help


I want you guys to back your claims with more than one recent work link because some of those tanks will be killed by detritus if the keeper makes a bad move during your fix, and you have to anticipate their mistakes in work threads as well... it’s humbling to try and affect someone else’s tank, x5 examples including really bad invasions on blackened sandbeds, vs make our paradigms off just our home tanks.


a works thread, a large old continually running fully accountable thread of others challenges...make one of these using alternate means if someone wants to convince me
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


Paul linked an action thread of dealing with detritus, not ignoring it, that supports my side (though I’m positive he didn’t intend for me to spin it that way heh)
I realize nobody else cares like I do about link work and it’s not likely to be validated as a claim proof, but links are how we can rate trends and they work well for that

I’m not interested in changing peoples mind who post here, I’m interested in changing my own mind so that when I’m contacted regularly to fix a tank, I’m applying and advising the best science of the day. I have not been swayed, the actual work I’m about to back edit into the prior page uses detritus management to save and preserve those tanks.

While detritus may grow apples & oranges, your comparison of two seperate nutrient management styles is as “apples & oranges to discerning people. When you say that some can do this for a few years, @Paul B dismantled his tanks 47 year old sandbed because he was moving, not as you implied, having a need to get a fresh start.

 

[Subsea]

The effects on the hobby, the waste of animals and rocks to do overs and lost tanks a few years in, that’s the effect of ots and detritus on the hobby, the select few advising it aren’t the ones cleaning up the mess, or they’d have a work link. They provide theories that large tankers with dilution can replicate, for a few years.


I’ve already back linked two works upcoming on the prior page, and that's only in 24 hours

I kicked up this thread to ask the passionate what they’ve done since May on the matter

Nada


You guys easily have a way to change this trend. Go solicit some work, link it. You could be guiding a new tank, or fixing an old one, any forum. They’re out there asking for help


I want you guys to back your claims with more than one recent work link because some of those tanks will be killed by detritus if the keeper makes a bad move during your fix, and you have to anticipate their mistakes in work threads as well... it’s humbling to try and affect someone else’s tank, x5 examples including really bad invasions on blackened sandbeds, vs make our paradigms off just our home tanks.


a works thread, a large old continually running fully accountable thread of others challenges...make one of these using alternate means if someone wants to convince me
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


Paul linked an action thread of dealing with detritus, not ignoring it, that supports my side (though I’m positive he didn’t intend for me to spin it that way heh)
I realize nobody else cares like I do about link work and it’s not likely to be validated as a claim proof, but links are how we can rate trends and they work well for that

I’m not interested in changing peoples mind who post here, I’m interested in changing my own mind so that when I’m contacted regularly to fix a tank, I’m applying and advising the best science of the day. I have not been swayed, the actual work I’m about to back edit into the prior page uses detritus management to save and preserve those tanks.

While detritus may grow apples & oranges, your comparison of two seperate nutrient management styles is as “apples & oranges to discerning people. When you say that some can do this for a few years, @Paul B
dismantled his tanks 47 year old sandbed because he was moving, not as you implied having a need to get a clean start.

 

[brandon429]

gotta agree to disagree as a temporary stand still, all we can do is use the next few months to verify works cited or not.

can't be swayed by anything other than you guys' new work examples coming up, no other meter will square us away. At least I've provided a way I could swayed, not seeing that from the other side

More examples of one's own home reef, challenges omitted/no motivation to post the downsides won't do, we need you all to work with skeptics.

I must see what others can replicate from advice given, not what the advisor wants to show.

Someone will have to get themselves deep into an invasion tank and undo it without detritus management. The reason I like invasion tanks vs happy running 4 month tanks is because everyone can store waste for a little while, the misbehaving reefs are the ones that test advice sages. I never thought that detritus packed into an aged tank that isn't under invasion is bad, it's simply allocated mud. My passion comes from the thread work and de engineering all those invasions, detritus did that when things weren't so lucky.


We're at a type stand still, only thing left is links. Post #190 here is mine by December, y'all assemble what you can to make your claims manifested in someone's tank who has no reason to post positive evaluations unless they're earned.

The work cited doesn't have to be just Invasion tanks they can be tanks that you guys set up and manage for others as well but if you're not using nano reefs we're going to wait till we're old and gray for the proof. If you are advising hands off nano reefing, that'll manifest by December for sure if you have more than one example brewing by then.

Let's put the evaluation not in the finger tips of the theorist, but in those of the tank owners who they advised, that'll be a change of pace.

 

[Sallstrom]

@brandon429

First, you realise that all those tank that were "saved" by your methode might have been "saved" by other methods as well. There is not one way to do things.

Second, I try to give some advises sometimes in different threads about algae and cyanobacteria etc, but most of the time the OT want a quick solution and my way takes a bit patience. Patience isn't that popular, so they often choose another way to go. But does that mean my way is no good?

Anyway, no hard feelings, I just think we like to approach tank related problems in different ways. Maybe because you work with smaller tank and I mostly run larger ones at my work.
You try to help a lot of aquarists and that's great. I wish I had the time to try to help newcomers more at forums.

 

[Paul B]

Easy test



Do not ever vacuum this one

No, I only moved here 6 weeks ago. I didn't clean all my gravel when I moved here. About a quarter of it I just put in a net and poured a little water over it so all the mud wouldn't float all over the place. The rest of my gravel I had to wash in fresh water because due to time, I had it in buckets and over a couple of weeks, hydrogen sulfide filled it so I had to bleach it. My original plan was to just rinse it in the sea but the police chased me away so I had to abandon that plan. I also have not added any mud yet because most of the beaches here are sand, but I found one yesterday in a lagoon that is filled with mud and that is what I will add. My tank now is acting like a new tank, hair algae and all. That is of no concern to me as I know it will pass with no help from me. Of course my corals hate me for that and the tips of some of them will die due to algae. I have many other things to do here than bother with my tank, I may get to it by the winter.

branch out and make some work in smaller tanks using your approach, that’s how we can see it applied vs having to wait on your home tank which didn’t have the old detritus moved and placed back under the bed

You did a fresh start for a reason, to buy time

I had 14 tanks at one time, now I am down to one. I always use this method as this was the original method and I see no reason to change and no better, healthier or as easily maintained set up

I didn't want to do a fresh start. If I could have moved my entire tank with me, detritus and all, I would have. But it was a little heavy. It was also scratched and I wanted a little larger tank. Everything in my tank was added to my new tank including a lot of the water.

When you say "Branch Out". Remember I have had a tank every day of my life from about 1953 or so. I have been doing this for a while and have had many tanks of all different configurations and have kept many creatures.

 

[Scott Campbell]

gotta agree to disagree as a temporary stand still, all we can do is use the next few months to verify works cited or not.

can't be swayed by anything other than you guys' new work examples coming up, no other meter will square us away. At least I've provided a way I could swayed, not seeing that from the other side

More examples of one's own home reef, challenges omitted/no motivation to post the downsides won't do, we need you all to work with skeptics.

I must see what others can replicate from advice given, not what the advisor wants to show.

Someone will have to get themselves deep into an invasion tank and undo it without detritus management. The reason I like invasion tanks vs happy running 4 month tanks is because everyone can store waste for a little while, the misbehaving reefs are the ones that test advice sages. I never thought that detritus packed into an aged tank that isn't under invasion is bad, it's simply allocated mud. My passion comes from the thread work and de engineering all those invasions, detritus did that when things weren't so lucky.


We're at a type stand still, only thing left is links. Post #190 here is mine by December, y'all assemble what you can to make your claims manifested in someone's tank who has no reason to post positive evaluations unless they're earned.

The work cited doesn't have to be just Invasion tanks they can be tanks that you guys set up and manage for others as well but if you're not using nano reefs we're going to wait till we're old and gray for the proof. If you are advising hands off nano reefing, that'll manifest by December for sure if you have more than one example brewing by then.

Let's put the evaluation not in the finger tips of the theorist, but in those of the tank owners who they advised, that'll be a change of pace.

Brandon

It is very kind of you to help so many people. And I admire your desire to find the best science to apply. You also clearly know what you are doing.

That said - here are the five specific reasons I take issue with your posts:

1. You are confusing causation with correlation. People see a distressed tank and note the frequently high levels of nitrate, phosphate, DOC, detritus and algae growth and assume these factors must be causing the distress. Which is like seeing a lot of blood at murder scenes and assuming blood must be dangerous. So the recommendation becomes something like – remove all trace of nitrate or phosphate or algae or DOC or detritus and your tank will be fine. But the situation is much more complicated and stripping the tank of nutrients often serves to simply starve your corals. There may be a correlation between high levels of detritus and a struggling reef tank – but you are providing zero evidence that detritus is the cause of the tank distress. The cause is usually a matter of husbandry. Detritus may accumulate rapidly as a consequence of poor husbandry but you have offered no evidence of what particular quality of detritus is harmful. Detritus is largely carbon – which is essential for life.

2. This notion of “dilution” you keep tossing around to explain how other tank methodologies avoid detritus removal is without scientific basis. A large tank can have just as much, if not more life, per gallon than a nano or pico sized tank. In fact, you have often touted one of the benefits of your approach as reducing the bioload of a tank so that a tank could weather a power outage more easily. How can a large tank *both* carry a heavier bioload because of large colonies of microfauna feeding on detritus and be more “diluted”? It makes no sense. Density of life per gallon has little connection to the total volume of the system. So the real question is – How can a tank like Paul B’s not crash despite a much heavier bioload and *less* dilution while (as you state) all pico and nano tanks seem destined to crash after a few years without intervention?

3. Proving the effectiveness of one approach does *not* prove the ineffectiveness of other approaches. Reef tank husbandry is not an either / or situation. You have very clearly demonstrated that water changes, sand rinses & detritus removal works exceptionally well. Fantastically well. But proving that 100,000 times over says nothing about the efficacy of other approaches. You are comparing a specific short-term reset against a rather infinite number of long-term strategies and then concluding the short-term reset is superior to all the more vaguely defined long-term strategies based on volume of links to “work examples”. As others have noted – it is apples to oranges and not a logical conclusion to make. I applaud your efforts at documenting your successes. But it is not proof in any fashion that detritus must be removed from the tank.

4. Export is export. You choose to export with water changes and detritus removal. I choose to export macro-algae, bacteria & worms. Paul B exports in whatever way Paul B exports. The challenge is to match export to import. If you find detritus management the most effective and easiest way to balance your tanks – that is wonderful. Have at it. There is no possible way I can access the detritus in my tank with a siphon. My tank is all coral and rock. So I make use of microfauna to do the job for me. To argue that detritus removal is the only way to avoid Old Tank Syndrome and the only way to keep a tank healthy is simply false.

5. What may work for a large tank may not work for a very small tank. Going larger may not necessarily make anything easier or better – but there is usually some threshold *below* which certain colonies of microfauna simply do not have sufficient real estate to exist as self-sustaining colonies. So it may be very likely that the only reasonable approach to maintaining a pico-sized aquarium is repeated water changes and detritus removal. But to then extrapolate from that observation to say the only reasonable approach to maintaining *any* size aquarium is repeated water changes and detritus removal is a false conclusion.


To clearly prove a certain approach can rescue a tank from distress is admirable and you deserve recognition and profound thanks for what you have achieved and documented. But to then make broader false conclusions based on your success and post those false conclusions extensively on the forum is not helpful.

Scott

 

[brandon429]

Salstrom

Make the thread showing that, I agree fully. Ideally, doubters will lead with/open the rebuttal with exactly what you stated, a link, the alternate ways getting the same ends and same consistency. You were debating a link, responding with one seems fair req

I keep responding to no link rebuttals, Scott's is most eloquently written.




let's see what we DO with all this procedural knowledge. Let's describe it less, and enact what we know to make reefing better more, in the form of any work link recently undertaken.

I choose to do battle in wrecked tanks and detritus stands out to me. Someone else find another way of illuminating an aspect of detritus, let's see your applications. No need to state how mine are faulty just post the better stuff we can infer it

Post number 190 here will slowly build over the coming weeks with my case that way I don't have to keep typing it. When I stop back in a few months and check for updates don't let me down. Expectations:

-New material not old

-Other people's tanks not your own

-accomplish something in them, keep track. Show what you can wield right now on demand threads asking for help are posted, collect your works where you caused finality in some way. if its not fixing a distressed tank, then guide someone starting one until December and lets see how things are going. The new requirement just keeps everything fresh and us on our toes

If you do enough will be able to see patterns that have you accounting for detritus or not accounting for it in the overall picture.

-Have that ready for study in a few mos. have as many as or more than post #190 since that's only one guy and the doubters are many. The final score is link based assessments only. Perhaps y'all were caught off guard on this most recent checkup, you're ready for October/December now I'm certain.

 

[Sallstrom]

Salstrom

Make the thread showing that, I agree fully. Ideally, doubters will lead with/open the rebuttal with exactly what you stated, a link, the alternate ways getting the same ends and same consistency. You were debating a link, responding with one seems fair req

I keep responding to no link rebuttals, Scott's is most eloquently written.




let's see what we DO with all this procedural knowledge. Let's describe it less, and enact what we know to make reefing better more, in the form of any work link recently undertaken.

I choose to do battle in wrecked tanks and detritus stands out to me. Someone else find another way of illuminating an aspect of detritus, let's see your applications. No need to state how mine are faulty just post the better stuff we can infer it

Even by October Post Number 190 is going to look great for the case of detritus darn sure mattering.

Not sure exactly what you mean. Like I wrote, the few time I try to help out, people tend to try a quicker fix instead
But I do run about 10 reef tanks at work, and some of them were started back in 2005. So for me, I can only say what we have done and what kind of results we got in those tanks. No prove, just our observations. If you think that will contribute I could share all the data we have?
If you want a competition in how many others tanks we can save, that something else. Not for me.

 

[brandon429]

Contribute anything you think helps readers decide about detritus and its impact in systems. The tanks you set up at work do count

It helps to at least include in works as they build over time the way you transmit your build techniques to others and measure how it works to get the complete scope and impacts of detritus, just my opinion. The complete picture needs to include outbound works as well, since that's such a tough standard to work within if someone is going to state a complete picture about the impacts of detritus in the system (we are testing how well others replicate the advice that storing detritus is rarely harmful and in fact fosters biodiversity and alt feeding sources... those are the pro claims for detritus as I read them)


Not all of my sand rinse thread was invasion control, some had to move and had so much waste stored up that they knew was lethal, they didn't know how to proceed. Right up until move time, they had no problems, so it seems acceptable to state that detritus matters (and can kill your entire system) if one is moving a system/at least that's a time to use ordered steps to ensure safety and no recycle. We never had to worry about recycling someone's bare bottom tank in our moves.


For sure the tanks you've managed count in those numbers they're their own pattern report and I would expect you to have managed them well.

over the next few mos wrestle into a few more tank correction threads at least so that the downside of detritus w be in play, its good honing for our own reef keeping even if we're already cruising fine. If dinos ever get into my system, the way Id handle that now is much much different than how I would have handled that in 08, having seen the challenges posted and what it takes to make a dent. I now clean my sandbed a couple times a year, completely clean, to lower the risk of any sustained invasions should a poor frag purchase import one or more. That's the same ends that bare bottom reefers have attained/I just clean my bed bc I like the way sand looks and don't want to be bare bottomed, classic reefs have sand.