Diadem dottyback with dropsy/gill infection?

heathermoor

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Hi, I'm looking for any advice.

I'm a newbie and have a nano set up of about 35 litres (UK). I have two blue legged hermit crabs and just one fish in it - one diadem dottyback which I have had for about 4 months, which I got once I was sure the tank was cycled. They have all been doing great together until over Christmas - 26 December I noticed it - the fish developed pine cone scales and was swollen. I test the water regularly and it has pH 8.2, trace ammonia, zero Nitrates and Nitrites. The temperature is set at 80F and the salinity - I check with red sea refractometer - is kept at 1.026.

I used some stuff called eSHa OODINEX which is available in the UK as a wide range marine fish and invert safe treatment. It has active ingredients ethacridine lactate 4.8mg, proflavine 0.7mg Malachite green 3.45mg and methylene blue 0.14mg in water. The swollenness has gradually decreased over the three day treatment the pack recommends. He just has a little swollenness over a smaller area and the scales stick out much less now. So I was hopeful he was recovering. I put him on a diet of frozen brine shrimp in case he was constipated as his preferred food is Hikari marine pellets and I thought maybe he had had too much of them - I feed a lot - perhaps too much - so that the crabs get some too. Just the odd pellet now and the brine shrimp which he tells me are rubbish compared to his pellets.

He is lively like before he became ill and has been eating throughout although he clearly doesnt like the frozen food as much as the pellets. He will snap up 3 pellets in a nano second given the chance, but much less enthusiasm for the brine shrimp, but that tells me the reluctance is about the food not a lack of appetite. He was looking much better but today I have noticed that although the swelling is better, he has what looks like redness - darker colouration - in two small patches, one each side, under his gill covers. I wish I'd photographed him before as I keep wondering if it is just me and did he always look like that, but I think not. I think he has some kind of gill irritation or infection. He isnt flashing or breathing especially quickly - he's a lively fast fish and seems to do everything at speed - and he is himself again in his behaviour, asking for food when he sees me etc, which he wasnt on the 26th - he was hiding a lot more.

It says on the eSHa packet that you can continue the dosing for 7 days if you need to, as long as you keep an eye out for any distress. So I gave some more today as directed, because I am worried about the dark patches.

Its hard for me to access the drugs most people talk about on here as the UK has concerns about antibiotics. However, I would be grateful for any advice like what might be the trouble with my fish and what things I could go in search of and try to obtain to treat him, even if I have to persuade a vet to let me have them, especially if the nature of his illness and the cure is shoutingly obvious to you who have a lot of experience in these matters. I'm sorry not to post a photo, but I'm an oldie and a bit challenged by how to do that!

In any case, thanks for reading this.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hi, I'm looking for any advice.

I'm a newbie and have a nano set up of about 35 litres (UK). I have two blue legged hermit crabs and just one fish in it - one diadem dottyback which I have had for about 4 months, which I got once I was sure the tank was cycled. They have all been doing great together until over Christmas - 26 December I noticed it - the fish developed pine cone scales and was swollen. I test the water regularly and it has pH 8.2, trace ammonia, zero Nitrates and Nitrites. The temperature is set at 80F and the salinity - I check with red sea refractometer - is kept at 1.026.

I used some stuff called eSHa OODINEX which is available in the UK as a wide range marine fish and invert safe treatment. It has active ingredients ethacridine lactate 4.8mg, proflavine 0.7mg Malachite green 3.45mg and methylene blue 0.14mg in water. The swollenness has gradually decreased over the three day treatment the pack recommends. He just has a little swollenness over a smaller area and the scales stick out much less now. So I was hopeful he was recovering. I put him on a diet of frozen brine shrimp in case he was constipated as his preferred food is Hikari marine pellets and I thought maybe he had had too much of them - I feed a lot - perhaps too much - so that the crabs get some too. Just the odd pellet now and the brine shrimp which he tells me are rubbish compared to his pellets.

He is lively like before he became ill and has been eating throughout although he clearly doesnt like the frozen food as much as the pellets. He will snap up 3 pellets in a nano second given the chance, but much less enthusiasm for the brine shrimp, but that tells me the reluctance is about the food not a lack of appetite. He was looking much better but today I have noticed that although the swelling is better, he has what looks like redness - darker colouration - in two small patches, one each side, under his gill covers. I wish I'd photographed him before as I keep wondering if it is just me and did he always look like that, but I think not. I think he has some kind of gill irritation or infection. He isnt flashing or breathing especially quickly - he's a lively fast fish and seems to do everything at speed - and he is himself again in his behaviour, asking for food when he sees me etc, which he wasnt on the 26th - he was hiding a lot more.

It says on the eSHa packet that you can continue the dosing for 7 days if you need to, as long as you keep an eye out for any distress. So I gave some more today as directed, because I am worried about the dark patches.

Its hard for me to access the drugs most people talk about on here as the UK has concerns about antibiotics. However, I would be grateful for any advice like what might be the trouble with my fish and what things I could go in search of and try to obtain to treat him, even if I have to persuade a vet to let me have them, especially if the nature of his illness and the cure is shoutingly obvious to you who have a lot of experience in these matters. I'm sorry not to post a photo, but I'm an oldie and a bit challenged by how to do that!

In any case, thanks for reading this.

While some of the ingredients in the eSHa OODINEX have benefit in treating fish diseases, the fact that it is marketed as "reef safe" means that the concentration of these is quite low, and not as effective as full strength medication.

The bloating and protruding scales can be a sign of ascites (fluid in the body cavity) or edema (fluid in the tissue itself). The causes for this is liver or kidney damage, and drugs in the water would be of no benefit. Swelling can also be caused by constipation/overfeeding or even egg binding in female fish.

If you could get a picture of the fish, I might be able to assess it better. Sometimes, a video from a phone even works. You could link to YouTube.

Jay
 
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heathermoor

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Thankyou so much for your prompt reply.

I'm reading as much as I can and in going from one thing to another I'm reading that malachite green can actually be quite nasty stuff and can cause gill damage. I hope I havent made matters worse by continuing the treatment but your comments on the low dose makes me hopeful I haven't.

Overfeeding is a likely candidate but I'm afraid I have no real idea whether the fish is he or she.
 
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heathermoor

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This is my first ever try at posting a video - it is hard to stop him hiding and so you cannot see him too well. I waved his packet of pellets about to get him to come out a bit - he didnt like the sight of the camera.
 

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Jay Hemdal

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This is my first ever try at posting a video - it is hard to stop him hiding and so you cannot see him too well. I waved his packet of pellets about to get him to come out a bit - he didnt like the sight of the camera.

So - here is what I think; the fish has some bloating, but it could be from eggs or too much food. I don't see anything wrong with it otherwise.

I do wonder this: the tank has a lot of algae in it and the airstone is running very weakly. Here is what can happen - during the day, all of that algae takes in carbon dioxide. That causes the pH to rise. Then, when the lights go out, the algae goes into reverse phase photosynthesis and it produces carbon dioxide which causes the pH to drop. That can be stressful to the fish.

Do you have a way to measure the pH? If so, test it at the end of the day before turning out the lights and then test it again in the morning before the lights are on. If there is a significant difference, that could be an issue.

If you don't have a way to measure pH, just turn the airstone up and try to remove some of the excess algae.

Jay
 
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heathermoor

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Ahhhh - yes, I have a big problem with hair algae that came in on a coral frag I bought. I left it alone since Christmas because I was worried that I was going to stress him too much with too much hands in the tank.

But I'll do what you say right away and many thanks.
 

vetteguy53081

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Agree with Jay on food causing bloat or even constipation. I have seen this more than once when small fish like this is being fed Pellets exclusively and can pass it fast enough.
What foods are you feeding ?
Also your water - What is your readings for Nitrate-ph-Phosphate?
I ask as your entire back wall has what is known as Lynbya and is a nuisance algae . Scrape off with the edge of an old credit card or similar into a net and discard. Reduce white intensity slightly and add snails such as:
margarita
cerith
nerite
trochus
astrea
 
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heathermoor

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Hi - thank you for your reply.

I've just been in the tank and cleared out about half of that algae which went with a 20% or so waterchange. Its very difficult to remove so your card suggestion is welcome. I've cranked up the airstone - I actually thought the airstone Jay said was running very weakly was running strongly, which just goes to show my inexperience. I'll get some more algae out in a day or two - I dont want to go too much shock and awe all at once on the fish, is what I'm thinking.

My nitrate reading is nil according to my API test kit. The pH is somewhere around 8.2 /8.4 but I do tend to do it the same time every day - sort of mid morning - if it is swinging around as suggested by Jay I wont have caught it. I'm afraid I dont test for phosphate - again, as a learner I thought that was only needed if you have corals and I'm just getting into that with two frags - a pulsing Xenia and a green star one, although tbh I feel like I perhaps bought trouble with them in the form of that algae as its arrival followed shortly after theirs. I dipped them, having read that was the thing to do, but the hair algae I did not spot.

I spent about six months reading about reef tanks before I tentatively set out on this small one. One of the things I read was that clearing out all the algae was a bad thing and I have erred on the side of not taking enough. I've also not realised that tests at the same time every day wont catch out the problems.

There is so much to learn! And maybe some of the things I have taken to heart might be old information and superseded now.

I'd like to have the snails like you suggest but I thought my two blue hermit crabs might kill them? Its a very small tank so not many opportunities to get away either.

The fish is addicted to Hikari Marine S - absolutely adores them - and I have perhaps been a bit silly in indulging him with them. I feed him on frozen brine shrimp and a max of 3 of those pellets a day and I'm feeding a bit of frozen mysis now as well. Perhaps that's a more sensible diet, do you think?

Anyway, thanks for your reply.
 
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heathermoor

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So - here is what I think; the fish has some bloating, but it could be from eggs or too much food. I don't see anything wrong with it otherwise.

I do wonder this: the tank has a lot of algae in it and the airstone is running very weakly. Here is what can happen - during the day, all of that algae takes in carbon dioxide. That causes the pH to rise. Then, when the lights go out, the algae goes into reverse phase photosynthesis and it produces carbon dioxide which causes the pH to drop. That can be stressful to the fish.

Do you have a way to measure the pH? If so, test it at the end of the day before turning out the lights and then test it again in the morning before the lights are on. If there is a significant difference, that could be an issue.

If you don't have a way to measure pH, just turn the airstone up and try to remove some of the excess algae.

Jay
Just to say thankyou very much for your help.

As I posted above, I acted on your advice. The fish is now completely back to normal - not bloated at all, no pinecone appearance, absolutely nothing wrong anymore and behaving like its normal healthy self.

Its a major battle with this algae though and I haven't won yet, - its next to impossible to clear every bit out and it multiplies fast - but I'm keeping at it and I think I'm going to win.

Its really wonderful for beginners like me to have access to advice like yours. And I expect plenty of fish are grateful too.

Thankyou so much.
 

Jay Hemdal

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You're welcome, but I have to wonder if your fish recovered on its own, and not related to my advice (grin).

Jay
 

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