Diatom filter for treating external parasites?

[Arvind Arya]

Also can someone explain how fish develop an immunity to velvet? I find this part fascinating. I lost all my fish bar a sailfin- who was covered in it but still seemingly fine and my small maroon clownfish- male. The female mate died or a secondary infection. Does it mean with parasite management, that they can hold off a small population with their immnity or are they full immune? The clownfish in particular was completely unaffected and I know that they have rougher slime coats- but the female did get velvet and perish due to a secondary infection.

Does immunity mean always immune or partial?

 

[robert]

Robert
What do you suggest to do regarding the fallow period? I am about 2 weeks in. Velvet

That's up to you. Since your fish are out and I assume you have a suitable home for them you could complete the fallow period. I personally wouldn't go over a month for ich or velvet, I would stir or sterilize my sand-bed, but whatever you do, I would suggest you to look closely at your system. Your tank is probably set-up in such a way that it naturally becomes a death-trap once ich or velvet is introduced. That's not a knock against you, its just that most tanks are.

I like to use sinking fish pellets (food) like Hikari "A" and Hikari "S" as parasite proxies. Drop some in and watch. In most tanks they may drift around a bit, but once they hit the sand-bed, they pretty much stay in place or worse yet accumulate in all those places where your fish settle down to sleep at night. That's typical of tanks where the only draw is the overflow and flow is positioned to "not disturb" the sand-bed. Now you can see that if instead of food, if those pellets were ich or velvet, your tank would very soon develop a major problem. Fix it. You want the pellets to hit the bottom and keep moving ultimately ending up in an area where you have positioned "deep draw" straight to a filter or have created "turbulent lift" up to the overflow. Either works - deep draw is old-school and easier but turbulent lift works too.

This is actually easier than it sounds. In a rectangular tank, I like to position return flow length-wise in the tank - pushing water away from the overflow. When it hits the opposite end the current will drop and return along the bottom to the base of the overflow. Make sure you don't obstruct these return paths along the bottom with rock etc. I position my rock in the center, down the length of the tank, ensuring free flow along the bottom in front and behind my rock work. Where pellets are caught by the rock - position power-heads to blow them back into the main currents - front and back along the bottom towards your deep return. Bare-bottom is easiest obviously. Fine sand moves around in the flow. Course sand or gravel is fine especially in conjunction with under gravel filtration. UGF or RUGF both can be used to advantage.

I don't care what type of filter you run - DE or otherwise - this flow has to be right or all your doing is stirring some very clear water.

Pool DE filters are fine. Cheap and powerful. One can be had for ~$200 which will work for tanks up to 500G. Most salt tolerant pool pumps can be used as well - multi or variable speed - they won't leak diatom powder back to the tank unless they're installed wrong or broken. You don't need a pre-filter nor would I think you would want one. (I don't have a pre-filter on my tank or my pool for that matter). They will strip plankton and substantial bacteria from the water - unless you know exactly what bacteria you have and why - this is a good thing - (lots of potential nasties - read the link) you can shut the DE down to feed corals etc and clear the excess in minutes. You can also easily run carbon along with DE powder. Comes in handy.

I run 24x7 - mostly at low speed - but if something happens, I can open it up and clear > 99% of the water in minutes. I have another post that helps you figure the flow rates.

Ich and velvet are not the same but the have a similar 4 stage life-cycle with differences in stage duration etc. Velvet is fast - completing a life-cycle in days - ich takes twice as long. There are numerous strains of each - genetically quite different and distinct, but it turns out that a fish that develops immunity against one strain generally is protected from other strains of as well. The fishes immune response builds quickly and persists for six months before it wanes. Different species of fish have different innate levels of susceptibility - some bottom dwellers have a resistance (different than immunity) usually attributed to their slime coat or scale structure. Other organisms - shrimp, snails, pods suffer from similar parasites. It is believed species differentiation is a function of the parasites specific attachment mechanism for their hosts. It takes a fairly large number of parasites to kill a fish, on the order of hundreds per gram.

Healthy fish have healthy immune systems, but they don't have immunity unless exposed. You can't feed your fish to be immune to ich or velvet unless they come in contact with the pathogen. Nice idea though.

Vortex DE filters are pretty crappy, low quality and unwieldy - The magnum HOT is a toy, I wouldn't bother with either except on the smallest of tanks or out of utter desperation.

Most who comment on DE filters only know the vortex - so of course they suck. Most others have no idea how to implement them, but they're used in commercial operations and public aquariums routinely. That's where I learned of them, from a marine biologist who did much of the early research on velvet and ich, who consulted and did research for commercial fisheries and who was also the director of a public aquarium. Guys name was Dr. Adrian Lawler https://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/a_lawler_111697.html

Proper use does take some work and practice. It took me a while to get the configuration right. Now its easier to service and operate than a skimmer - less than 10 minutes to flush, charge and back online. Never overflows - no adjustments - no need for fallow periods - I don't quarantine (although admittedly I should). My son got me a huge Black Tang which came in absolutely covered with ich. Really bad shape, went straight in - recovered - no additional casualties. Got a stubborn strain of velvet introduced with an Achilles Tang also in bad shape. Three days on high flow took it out as well. Corals seem to do well - at least no worse.

With all that said - it doesn't have to be DE - DE is just the easiest cheapest and arguably the best mechanical filtration I've ever found as it addresses one of the major issues in reef-keeping - instant dilution.

 

[Paul B]

Also can someone explain how fish develop an immunity to velvet? I find this part fascinating.

Fish develop immunity to velvet just like they become immune from virtually every other parasite. By being exposed. Your fish are most likely immune when you get them from the sea. Holding tanks, lack of food, shipping and quarantine drastically lower a fishes ability to make antibodies and antiparisitic substances in their slime.
If you take a wild fish from the sea, fed it correctly including living bacteria and parasites, put it in a mature, not very sterile system with other immune fish, it will be fine and it's immunity will very soon protect the fish just as it does in the sea.
There is almost never a reason to treat a sick fish as they should never get sick.
It is us that makes them sick.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

what would be more effective with parasite management? UV or a diatom filter?
I heard a UV could kill your beneficial bacteria- it kills anything it comes into contact with.
Diatom not so much- just more matter passing through including critters.

Anyone want to chime in about which is better? I still have about 4 weeks to go before my 6 weeks is up!

U.V. does not harm beneficial bacteria because it attaches to glass, rock, and any other substrate. Most beneficial bacteria are not just floating around in the water but create a film on surfaces.

True things that pass through a proper sized U.V. are killed or sterilized preventing population growth of the pathogen population.
I use mechanical filtration before the U. V. to enhance the kill power if you will. A cartridge filter works fine don't remember the micron size.

 

[Arvind Arya]

I was looking at that Marineland diatom filter. Mixed reviews on it. Def an eye sore in the main DT. Seems like the filter cartridges clog frequently.
Robert- what was the $200 one you are referring to? I only see the Vortex outside of the Marineland one I just mentioned.

I have 2 MP 40's facing each other. My return flows towards the overflow box. I have a small powerhead pointing down beside the overflow box as it is not in the corner of the tank but about 5 inches from the corner. This corridor is where I put the little powerhead so there is some flow there. My rock work is not against the back wall but in the center, so fishies can swim in front and behind it.

 

[Arvind Arya]

If you look carefully you can see the little powerhead in the upper corner where the is the dead spot corridor i call it.
Anyhow, I have one of the MP 40s on random flow mode to mix up the currents periodically. the other is mostly the straight ahead mode.

 

[Infer0s]

Will a diatom filter remove medication from the water? For example copper if you use it in cinjuction in a hospital tank?

 

[Infer0s]

Will a diatom filter remove medication from the water? For example copper if you use it in cinjuction in a hospital tank?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Will a diatom filter remove medication from the water? For example copper if you use it in cinjuction in a hospital tank?

No reason to believe that the filter will remove medications. It may clog if the water has lots of turbidity.

 

[Paul B]

Diatom filters only remove particles, nothing dissolved.

 

[Infer0s]

Yes this is normal and would happen whether any chemical is present or not in the water. But i have read somewhere that DE can remove heavy metals from water that's why im asking if anyone has experience on the matter.
To be more precise im currently treating with cupramine for marine velvet and im thinking of using my marineland diatom filter with DE and i am worried if it will remove the medictaion from the water.

 

[Infer0s]

Yes this is normal and would happen whether any chemical is present or not in the water. But i have read somewhere that DE can remove heavy metals from water that's why im asking if anyone has experience on the matter.
To be more precise im currently treating with cupramine for marine velvet and im thinking of using my marineland diatom filter with DE and i am worried if it will remove the medictaion from the water.

 

[reefwiser]

I would say no as Micron or Micrometer is a measurement; one millionth of a meter. To put this in perspective, a human blood cell is 2-3 microns in width and 7 microns in diameter. DE filters down to 2 microns in the powered form. So any particle larger than 2 microns will be filtered out with a DE filter. It may removed some particles that are larger but most liquids are smaller than 2 microns.

 

[Infer0s]

Ok i have started using it in the last 3 hours. I will test with a coopper next mornig to see iere are any changes in the concetration. Also onother question, i'm usin a marine land magnum 350 external canister filter for diatom filtering, for this medical apply how much pouder (mls/grams) do yousuugest to use?

 

[Be102]

That's up to you. Since your fish are out and I assume you have a suitable home for them you could complete the fallow period. I personally wouldn't go over a month for ich or velvet, I would stir or sterilize my sand-bed, but whatever you do, I would suggest you to look closely at your system. Your tank is probably set-up in such a way that it naturally becomes a death-trap once ich or velvet is introduced. That's not a knock against you, its just that most tanks are.

I like to use sinking fish pellets (food) like Hikari "A" and Hikari "S" as parasite proxies. Drop some in and watch. In most tanks they may drift around a bit, but once they hit the sand-bed, they pretty much stay in place or worse yet accumulate in all those places where your fish settle down to sleep at night. That's typical of tanks where the only draw is the overflow and flow is positioned to "not disturb" the sand-bed. Now you can see that if instead of food, if those pellets were ich or velvet, your tank would very soon develop a major problem. Fix it. You want the pellets to hit the bottom and keep moving ultimately ending up in an area where you have positioned "deep draw" straight to a filter or have created "turbulent lift" up to the overflow. Either works - deep draw is old-school and easier but turbulent lift works too.

This is actually easier than it sounds. In a rectangular tank, I like to position return flow length-wise in the tank - pushing water away from the overflow. When it hits the opposite end the current will drop and return along the bottom to the base of the overflow. Make sure you don't obstruct these return paths along the bottom with rock etc. I position my rock in the center, down the length of the tank, ensuring free flow along the bottom in front and behind my rock work. Where pellets are caught by the rock - position power-heads to blow them back into the main currents - front and back along the bottom towards your deep return. Bare-bottom is easiest obviously. Fine sand moves around in the flow. Course sand or gravel is fine especially in conjunction with under gravel filtration. UGF or RUGF both can be used to advantage.

I don't care what type of filter you run - DE or otherwise - this flow has to be right or all your doing is stirring some very clear water.

Pool DE filters are fine. Cheap and powerful. One can be had for ~$200 which will work for tanks up to 500G. Most salt tolerant pool pumps can be used as well - multi or variable speed - they won't leak diatom powder back to the tank unless they're installed wrong or broken. You don't need a pre-filter nor would I think you would want one. (I don't have a pre-filter on my tank or my pool for that matter). They will strip plankton and substantial bacteria from the water - unless you know exactly what bacteria you have and why - this is a good thing - (lots of potential nasties - read the link) you can shut the DE down to feed corals etc and clear the excess in minutes. You can also easily run carbon along with DE powder. Comes in handy.

I run 24x7 - mostly at low speed - but if something happens, I can open it up and clear > 99% of the water in minutes. I have another post that helps you figure the flow rates.

Ich and velvet are not the same but the have a similar 4 stage life-cycle with differences in stage duration etc. Velvet is fast - completing a life-cycle in days - ich takes twice as long. There are numerous strains of each - genetically quite different and distinct, but it turns out that a fish that develops immunity against one strain generally is protected from other strains of as well. The fishes immune response builds quickly and persists for six months before it wanes. Different species of fish have different innate levels of susceptibility - some bottom dwellers have a resistance (different than immunity) usually attributed to their slime coat or scale structure. Other organisms - shrimp, snails, pods suffer from similar parasites. It is believed species differentiation is a function of the parasites specific attachment mechanism for their hosts. It takes a fairly large number of parasites to kill a fish, on the order of hundreds per gram.

Healthy fish have healthy immune systems, but they don't have immunity unless exposed. You can't feed your fish to be immune to ich or velvet unless they come in contact with the pathogen. Nice idea though.

Vortex DE filters are pretty crappy, low quality and unwieldy - The magnum HOT is a toy, I wouldn't bother with either except on the smallest of tanks or out of utter desperation.

Most who comment on DE filters only know the vortex - so of course they suck. Most others have no idea how to implement them, but they're used in commercial operations and public aquariums routinely. That's where I learned of them, from a marine biologist who did much of the early research on velvet and ich, who consulted and did research for commercial fisheries and who was also the director of a public aquarium. Guys name was Dr. Adrian Lawler https://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/a_lawler_111697.html

Proper use does take some work and practice. It took me a while to get the configuration right. Now its easier to service and operate than a skimmer - less than 10 minutes to flush, charge and back online. Never overflows - no adjustments - no need for fallow periods - I don't quarantine (although admittedly I should). My son got me a huge Black Tang which came in absolutely covered with ich. Really bad shape, went straight in - recovered - no additional casualties. Got a stubborn strain of velvet introduced with an Achilles Tang also in bad shape. Three days on high flow took it out as well. Corals seem to do well - at least no worse.

With all that said - it doesn't have to be DE - DE is just the easiest cheapest and arguably the best mechanical filtration I've ever found as it addresses one of the major issues in reef-keeping - instant dilution.

Hi Robert
I was wondering what filter you were running on your tank. Thank you

 

[robert]

I run a slightly modified Hayward EC40 Perflex Extended-Cycle D.E. Pool Filter.

 

[ReefWithCare]

Hi @Humblefish - what are your thoughts of using this as part of your QT process?

I already have a Marineland Polishing filter in my QT and it can use the diatom filter. It’s mostly there for water movement as I have enough Bilogical filtration in my power filter.

I was also wondering if you had an amazon link for the DR Powder. I want to make sure I buy the right kind.

 

[Fudsey]

I use the pool grade DE from HTH. Got it at a pool supply house. Was like $20 for a 10 lb box that will last a lifetime

 

[Humblefish]

Hi @Humblefish - what are your thoughts of using this as part of your QT process?

I already have a Marineland Polishing filter in my QT and it can use the diatom filter. It’s mostly there for water movement as I have enough Bilogical filtration in my power filter.

I was also wondering if you had an amazon link for the DR Powder. I want to make sure I buy the right kind.

I see no downside to running a DE after all the meds are out. I use a small one in every conditioning tank to maintain good water quality.

I use the pool grade DE from HTH. Got it at a pool supply house. Was like $20 for a 10 lb box that will last a lifetime

^^ I use the same

 

[Monkeytank]

I have 630 gallons total volume and am going to be adding another 460 gallons in a few months. Do you think the Hayward EC50AC would be a good choice to get to hook up with my system? I was thinking about getting that and using a Jebao CDP20000 pump to run it in the sump. That is advertised at 5,283 Gph.