Diatom filter for treating external parasites?

[cbnspanky]

I read through this thread hoping it would end with @Humblefish doing his experiments and concluding the DE filter was the holy grail. What happened?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I read through this thread hoping it would end with @Humblefish doing his experiments and concluding the DE filter was the holy grail. What happened?

I don't think the method has any promise as a standalone treatment - I've used DE filters since the 1970's to try and control protozoans and never had success using them alone. The crux of the issue is that the DE filters simply do not remove enough of the tomites to stop an active infection. The tomonts rest on the tank substrate - they release theronts/tomites overnight. Some of these immediately attach to the fish, without EVER going through the DE or UV.

DE does have some benefit when employed as one part of a comprehensive ich management system. Be forewarned though, ich management doesn't always work as people hope it will.

Methods for ich management:

1) Strong UV sterilizer
2) Frequent water changes
3) Siphoning the sand early every morning
4) Good mechanical filtration to remove theronts (DE for example)
5) Low dose peroxide additions
6) Proper diet if one had not been offered prior
7) Temperature of 78 degrees F

Jay

 

[Superlightman]

3) Siphoning the sand early every morning? Areyou serious you can do that?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

3) Siphoning the sand early every morning? Areyou serious you can do that?

Wake up extra early or go home!

Seriously, if you pick and choose which management methods you want to employ, the chance of failure increases.

Jay

 

[cbnspanky]

I don't think the method has any promise as a standalone treatment - I've used DE filters since the 1970's to try and control protozoans and never had success using them alone. The crux of the issue is that the DE filters simply do not remove enough of the tomites to stop an active infection. The tomonts rest on the tank substrate - they release theronts/tomites overnight. Some of these immediately attach to the fish, without EVER going through the DE or UV.

DE does have some benefit when employed as one part of a comprehensive ich management system. Be forewarned though, ich management doesn't always work as people hope it will.

Methods for ich management:

1) Strong UV sterilizer
2) Frequent water changes
3) Siphoning the sand early every morning
4) Good mechanical filtration to remove theronts (DE for example)
5) Low dose peroxide additions
6) Proper diet if one had not been offered prior
7) Temperature of 78 degrees F

Jay

I have a small UV sterilizer that doesn’t seem to do much on low flow. I’ve seen videos where a guy uses an oversized one that isn’t permanently plumbed in to control parasites. What size/flow would I need for my nano which is a 12 gallon long?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a small UV sterilizer that doesn’t seem to do much on low flow. I’ve seen videos where a guy uses an oversized one that isn’t permanently plumbed in to control parasites. What size/flow would I need for my nano which is a 12 gallon long?

The problem is that the kill dose for ich using UV isn’t clearly known. I’ve seen values of 80k to 800k uWsec/cm2. I use 280k as a median value.

Measuring UV is complicated: it is measured in power over time for a given tank volume. I need to use calculators/charts to figure it out. Trouble is, most of those don’t list tanks as small as yours. To ballpark it….the filter should give 3x turnover, so 36 gph. I’d use a 9 watt unit.
Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

I don't think the method has any promise as a standalone treatment - I've used DE filters since the 1970's to try and control protozoans and never had success using them alone. The crux of the issue is that the DE filters simply do not remove enough of the tomites to stop an active infection. The tomonts rest on the tank substrate - they release theronts/tomites overnight. Some of these immediately attach to the fish, without EVER going through the DE or UV.

DE does have some benefit when employed as one part of a comprehensive ich management system. Be forewarned though, ich management doesn't always work as people hope it will.

Methods for ich management:

1) Strong UV sterilizer
2) Frequent water changes
3) Siphoning the sand early every morning
4) Good mechanical filtration to remove theronts (DE for example)
5) Low dose peroxide additions
6) Proper diet if one had not been offered prior
7) Temperature of 78 degrees F

Jay

If the QT has no substrate then would they attach to the biofilm on the tank walls or more likely to be picked up by the DE filter? Thinking of building a tank where water flows towards one end forcing the entire volume to pass through several different micron cartridges before returning on the other side. Only other items in the tank being 90 degree pvc elbows which can be cleansed as needed. Final stage being UV set for protozoans to catch other issues. Micron cartridges for capturing ich. I’m good with not capturing all ich to immunize the fish. Big believer in building immunity vs trying to live in a sterile bug free environment

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sure, less substrate for the tomonts to stick to, the easier it will be to dislodge them and filter them out.

Remember that any acquired immunity for ich is transient and not expected to last longer than about 4 months if the fish aren’t continually being challenged by it.

Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

Sure, less substrate for the tomonts to stick to, the easier it will be to dislodge them and filter them out.

Remember that any acquired immunity for ich is transient and not expected to last longer than about 4 months if the fish aren’t continually being challenged by it.

Jay

Thought the immunity was permanent. That’s a bummer

 

[cbnspanky]

The problem is that the kill dose for ich using UV isn’t clearly known. I’ve seen values of 80k to 800k uWsec/cm2. I use 280k as a median value.

Measuring UV is complicated: it is measured in power over time for a given tank volume. I need to use calculators/charts to figure it out. Trouble is, most of those don’t list tanks as small as yours. To ballpark it….the filter should give 3x turnover, so 36 gph. I’d use a 9 watt unit.
Jay

Thanks. I was hoping to really overdo it with like 18 watts. The guy in the vid is using an enormous one.

 

[Paul B]

Thought the immunity was permanent. That’s a bummer

It is, as long as you still have some living parasites in your display just like in the sea. That is the reason none of my fish died from ich in about 45 years.

If you eliminate all the parasites, the immunity, as Jay said will wane and any infection will cause a full blown ich infestation. It's tricky but many of us learned a very long time ago how to keep our tanks completely, 100% immune and disease free.

 

[GARRIGA]

It is, as long as you still have some living parasites in your display just like in the sea. That is the reason none of my fish died from ich in about 45 years.

If you eliminate all the parasites, the immunity, as Jay said will wane and any infection will cause a full blown ich infestation. It's tricky but many of us learned a very long time ago how to keep our tanks completely, 100% immune and disease free.

100% goals aren’t always achieved because not all practice proper QT with everything new. I know I haven’t but still my goal. All it takes is that one snail or live rock but perhaps using a method to reduce the pathogens numbers to keep from overwhelming its host will allow continued immunity as in the wild. Lots to consider. Not all can QT everything unfortunately

 

[GARRIGA]

Sure, less substrate for the tomonts to stick to, the easier it will be to dislodge them and filter them out.

Remember that any acquired immunity for ich is transient and not expected to last longer than about 4 months if the fish aren’t continually being challenged by it.

Jay

Followed up on this and found a study on mullet that mentioned up to six months but testing didn’t go beyond that. Therefore we don’t know if immunity lasts beyond that period based on what I found. Do you have other studies that show conclusively that immunity is temporary?

Not questioning your knowledge but it impacts how I design my QT and main. Want to have the facts so I can make my own interpretations on how to move forward.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Followed up on this and found a study on mullet that mentioned up to six months but testing didn’t go beyond that. Therefore we don’t know if immunity lasts beyond that period based on what I found. Do you have other studies that show conclusively that immunity is temporary?

Not questioning your knowledge but it impacts how I design my QT and main. Want to have the facts so I can make my own interpretations on how to move forward.

Noga cites the same paper, but says, "Recovered fish develop a protective immunity that can last up to six months; however, some fish are not completely protected." So, I settled on 4 months as a more likely real-world time frame.

Now, Peter Burgess is a bit old school, and many of his early papers were preliminary and haven't stood the test of time (especially his work with Colorni). This paper is behind a paywall, but the abstract needs to be read carefully between the lines (see in bold)

Acquired protection to Cryptocaryon irritans has been demonstrated for the first time, using the grey mullet, Chelon labrosus, as an experimental host. Fish, immunized by controlled infections, established immunity against challenge infections with C. irritans, the degree of protection correlating with both intensity and exposure levels, with relatively few fish developing full protection. Protection lasted for six months in the absence of re-exposure to the parasite.

The last sentence makes no sense to me - if the fish weren't challenged with re-exposure, then how were they considered to have protective immunity?(grin).

Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

Noga cites the same paper, but says, "Recovered fish develop a protective immunity that can last up to six months; however, some fish are not completely protected." So, I settled on 4 months as a more likely real-world time frame.

Now, Peter Burgess is a bit old school, and many of his early papers were preliminary and haven't stood the test of time (especially his work with Colorni). This paper is behind a paywall, but the abstract needs to be read carefully between the lines (see in bold)

Acquired protection to Cryptocaryon irritans has been demonstrated for the first time, using the grey mullet, Chelon labrosus, as an experimental host. Fish, immunized by controlled infections, established immunity against challenge infections with C. irritans, the degree of protection correlating with both intensity and exposure levels, with relatively few fish developing full protection. Protection lasted for six months in the absence of re-exposure to the parasite.

The last sentence makes no sense to me - if the fish weren't challenged with re-exposure, then how were they considered to have protective immunity?(grin).

Jay

That's what I'm struggling with in that perhaps the study was too short lived. My background in immunity lies in breeding Boas commercially and having spent too many hours with my vet and self research including a treatment we conducted in 2008 by injecting my collection with an antibody cocktail composed of most pathogens found during lung flushes conducted on all breeding age females. The treatment was successful and assumption being they were permanently immune to pathogens found in my collection although nothing scientific done post to confirm just the fact I have offsprings from that collection still in my care and the RI experienced then no longer showed itself.

Would seem logical to conclude it would work the same with fish but it appears not enough testing has been done to conclude any duration and perhaps just one species such as mullet not enough of a species pool to conclude all fish but then that's where my knowledge seizes as I assumed all reptiles behaved same as my small study.