Diatom filter for treating external parasites?

[Jay Hemdal]

You're saying the guy in the video is being disingenuous? He claims this is his go-to approach for ich/velvet.

I’ve gone down that road so many times and it has never worked. The kill dose for a Cryptocaryon theront is just too high, and then, on side stream, some theronts never even pass through the uv.
Jay

 

[brwaldbaum]

I’ve gone down that road so many times and it has never worked. The kill dose for a Cryptocaryon theront is just too high, and then, on side stream, some theronts never even pass through the uv.
Jay

I don't doubt your experience, but I am curious as to why different people report different results. Perhaps, as you say, the UV kill dose is practically unobtainable, but what about mechanical filtration. Consider this quote from Virginia Cooperative Extension publication 600-200. It addresses recirculating systems, if I'm understanding it correctly:

"The best method to date in the control of A. ocellatum
infestations in intensive aquaculture production systems
is filtration. This physically removes the tomont stage
from the production system while allowing for mini-
mal water exchange. Filtration on a commercial scale
in intensive recirculating aquaculture can be accom-
plished via microscreen, drum or bead filters. While
microscreen/drum filters generally have a direct filtrate
stream exiting the system, bead filters do not. As such,
it is imperative that the bead filters be backwashed a
minimum of one time per day. System volume should
be filtered at least once per hour, and down to at least
fifty microns. In research or hatchery environments,
cartridge or diatomaceous earth filters may also be eco-
nomically employed to control this parasitic disease.
This FACT SHEET was published by:
Virginia Tech
Virginia Sea Grant College Program,
Virginia Cooperative Extension
For further information contact:
Michael H. Schwarz
Virginia Seafood Agricultural Research and
Extension Center
102 South King Street
Hampton, VA 23669
E-mail- [email protected]"

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don't doubt your experience, but I am curious as to why different people report different results. Perhaps, as you say, the UV kill dose is practically unobtainable, but what about mechanical filtration. Consider this quote from Virginia Cooperative Extension publication 600-200. It addresses recirculating systems, if I'm understanding it correctly:

"The best method to date in the control of A. ocellatum
infestations in intensive aquaculture production systems
is filtration. This physically removes the tomont stage
from the production system while allowing for mini-
mal water exchange. Filtration on a commercial scale
in intensive recirculating aquaculture can be accom-
plished via microscreen, drum or bead filters. While
microscreen/drum filters generally have a direct filtrate
stream exiting the system, bead filters do not. As such,
it is imperative that the bead filters be backwashed a
minimum of one time per day. System volume should
be filtered at least once per hour, and down to at least
fifty microns. In research or hatchery environments,
cartridge or diatomaceous earth filters may also be eco-
nomically employed to control this parasitic disease.
This FACT SHEET was published by:
Virginia Tech
Virginia Sea Grant College Program,
Virginia Cooperative Extension
For further information contact:
Michael H. Schwarz
Virginia Seafood Agricultural Research and
Extension Center
102 South King Street
Hampton, VA 23669
E-mail- [email protected]"

Some of that makes no sense at all (grin). Bead filters have very poor removal rates for particulate organic carbon (including protozoans). Filtering 1x per hour down to 50 micron will not remove enough Amyloodinium to stop an infection - while the trophonts are 50 microns or larger, they are attached to the fish. The free floating infective dinospores are much smaller (12 micron) and wouldn't be filtered out at all. On my main system, I have 20 micron drum filter screens and a 3x turnover and would not consider even that effective. There is some valid argument that Amyloodinium never even has to leave the fish, it can reproduce all bound up in the fish's mucus. That means the only thing that will take them out are chemotherapeutics... I think that hydrogen peroxide has some promise in this regard, especially when you give the fish a static bath and then move it to a fresh tank.

Jay

 

[brwaldbaum]

There is some valid argument that Amyloodinium never even has to leave the fish, it can reproduce all bound up in the fish's mucus. That means the only thing that will take them out are chemotherapeutics...

What protects fish in the wild? Immunity?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What protects fish in the wild? Immunity?

IDK, for sure. I’ve seen some heavily parasitized fish in the wild. Immunity certainly is better in wild fish. In captivity, propagule pressure is much greater, and that tends to trump everything else.
Jay

 

[Paul B]

What protects fish in the wild? Immunity?

Yes, definitely. In the wild and in properly run home tanks such as mine and quite a few others. I feel trying to kill parasites is silly. Healthy fish have no problem with parasites which is why my fish have been immune for decades and none of them have ever died from or even exhibited parasites.

It's just a matter of feeding fish foods with living bacteria in it from the sea and having the proper living conditions.
If this were not true, my tank would exist and the reason there are no old quarantined or medicated tanks. (Old is not ten years as that is not even the life span of a simple hermit crab)

OK, I'm done, continue to have fun.

 

[tastyfish]

You're saying the guy in the video is being disingenuous? He claims this is his go-to approach for ich/velvet.

Others claim that garlic cures all, that all fish have ciliates or that they spontaeously appear. It may be *his* go to, but that doesn't make it any more valid than garlic or those who claim to have never had cryptocaryon because they have good water.

I suspect an actual skin scraping/gill sample would prove the point.

 

[tastyfish]

Yes, definitely. In the wild and in properly run home tanks such as mine and quite a few others. I feel trying to kill parasites is silly. Healthy fish have no problem with parasites which is why my fish have been immune for decades and none of them have ever died from or even exhibited parasites.

It's just a matter of feeding fish foods with living bacteria in it from the sea and having the proper living conditions.
If this were not true, my tank would exist and the reason there are no old quarantined or medicated tanks. (Old is not ten years as that is not even the life span of a simple hermit crab)

OK, I'm done, continue to have fun.

Temporary immunity (let's call it tolerance) has been shown after a specific number of cycles, but typically lasts 6 months. During which time they are carriers and can infect other fish.

The issue in an aquarium vs in the sea is VOLUME! The tank can be swarming with parasites. The sea, not so much. I don't know how you are linking "immunity" to ciliate protozoans to bacteria in food, but I've heard it all before, so each to their own.

 

[Paul B]

Temporary immunity (let's call it tolerance) has been shown after a specific number of cycles, but typically lasts 6 months.

LOL, It has worked for decades in my tank so whatever we call it it must be some sort of immunity. I doubt I am that lucky.

. I don't know how you are linking "immunity" to ciliate protozoans to bacteria in food,

I didn't make it up and linked many scientific articles on it, wrote many articles and wrote a book. Not that proves anything except I like to write. And of course the 50 year old immune tank.

 

[Teku1998]

I've been reading this thread on-and-off for 3 days, I'm on page 11... Should I continue through the whole thing? I'm loving it so far. I am impressed with the knowledge of the main posters here. I just skipped ahead to see what year this would end, I'm shocked to see a 2021 label.

 

[a hill]

I've been reading this thread on-and-off for 3 days, I'm on page 11... Should I continue through the whole thing? I'm loving it so far. I am impressed with the knowledge of the main posters here. I just skipped ahead to see what year this would end, I'm shocked to see a 2021 label.

Same, I'm not sure which post switched from chest thumping from actual experimentation and posting results. I made it 5 pages in before checking the last page.

Any chance of a "greatest hits" linking to or quoting all the significant sections/posts that are useful??

I see no value in seeing people make claims about their tanks over X years as proof. It is not any controlled test, or even a comparison to before and after adding XYZ with the anecdotal replies.

Ego in this hobby, is why so may people leave. Exhausting to deal with.

-Andrew

 

[fishybizzness]

The proof is in the pudding. For me, it would be impossible to have a fully quarantined tank as i use mostly natural seawater. I was having issues with fish constantly being overun with cryptocaryon and dying within a few weeks in the tank. The only major change was adding a uv sterilizer and within a month the cryptocaryon issue was solved. My fish do still get a spot or 2 occasionally but that's about it. I have a 2 year old Atlantic blue tang and a over 3 year old Atlantic surgeon fish that couldn't be healthier. I set up a new 120 last year and have a uv plumbed in from right after the cycle. I currently have 2 Atlantic blue tangs that were about 3/4" when I added them and are now almost 2" . They have shown a spot or 2 but it usually goes away after a few days. I know it works without a doubt for me. I feel that most of the failures are not using the uv correctly as far as the flow speed. I'm definitely a believer and would never run a tank without it.

 

[Paul B]

Fishybizzness, I don't know if the UV is doing anything or not as I never use them. But IMO the fact that your fish exhibit a spot or two occasionally is a very good sign and a sign that they have enough immunity to avert a full blown "pandemic" in your tank.

I firmly believe, "And it is only my opinion" that the tanks where all the parasites are always killed or try to kill all of them are the tanks with all the disease problems.

Fish need exposure to parasites to stay immune to them.

You can easily see that on the disease forum. Your tank is healthy.
Have a great day.

 

[fishybizzness]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Paul! It means a lot coming from an expert like you!

 

[Paul B]

Thanks, I am not an expert, just a retired, bald electrician with an old, healthy fish tank.

 

[Ceez]

Is this guy being disingenuous or deceiving himself? Granted, he uses an oversized unit to clear the infection, but he relies on a hobby grade unit to keep the tank disease free.

I'm by no means an expert but what baffled me and I'm completely surprised no one has mentioned it was the fact that he said he had to remove debri from the pump to get it to work. That being said now we all know this UV sterilizer hasn't been sterilized and what would prevent him from cross contamination? I don't know exactly what to think here. I've read through this entire thread, every single post and there are so many contradicting statements. Velvet can remain dormant/no it can't same with ich..

We all want to know what's the best way to go about keeping our aquariums alive and healthy with the least amount of problems. I see a ton of concern from everyone and for me personally I don't keep fish without becoming attached and feel absolutely terrible when they become sick or even worse die. I appreciate everyone that has contributed to this thread as healthy discussion is eye opening and I've learned so much. Don't know if I'm more confused then ever at this point though lol

 

[reefwiser]

UV is least effective form of water treatment. As it depends on the flow pass the UV light. An water flow has to be just slow enough to kill the parasite. But it might not kill all that pass thru the UV. An the amount thru the UV and the rate of reproduction of the parasite. It the tricky part.

 

[fishybizzness]

UV is least effective form of water treatment. As it depends on the flow pass the UV light. An water flow has to be just slow enough to kill the parasite. But it might not kill all that pass thru the UV. An the amount thru the UV and the rate of reproduction of the parasite. It the tricky part.

From my understanding and research, uv doesn't actually kill the cryptocaryon, it sterilizes it thus rendering it unable to reproduce. At the proper size sterilizer and proper water flow through it enough of the parasites are sterilized to keep the population at a level that the fish can handle. As I see in my own tank, my fish do show a few spots occasionally but they don't last fo more than a few days. The only thing I did different was adding a uv so I believe it works for me.

 

[Frostblitz20]

What protects fish in the wild? Immunity?

Prob has to do with Immunity as alot of the fish in the hobby is captured bred now. Also helps that you have a natural ecosystem vs a small enclosed tank where small changes have a drastic impact on the overall ecosystem of a tank.

Also im pretty sure BRS did a video on UV systems on how effective they are on certain things using UV systems from small to the largest size ones made for 250 gallon tanks and the results was almost always opposite of the claims of these UV companies.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

From my understanding and research, uv doesn't actually kill the cryptocaryon, it sterilizes it thus rendering it unable to reproduce. At the proper size sterilizer and proper water flow through it enough of the parasites are sterilized to keep the population at a level that the fish can handle. As I see in my own tank, my fish do show a few spots occasionally but they don't last fo more than a few days. The only thing I did different was adding a uv so I believe it works for me.

Only the Cryptocaryon theronts enter the water column where they can go through the UV. The flow rate and wattage must be high enough to kill the theronts. Most references, such as Spotte and Noga say that sidestream UV does not work in eliminating moderate to heavy infections. Direct flow, where the UV irradiates the water flowing into a second tank is more effective.
Jay