Is my Pyramid injured or something else?

[Damage12]

Mine has the same spot in the same spot. I would say this is normal for a pyramid when scared or stressed. I’ve had mine for over 6 years.

 

[code4]

Mine has the same spot in the same spot. I would say this is normal for a pyramid when scared or stressed. I’ve had mine for over 6 years.

They are. Or lights changing. It is the left eye I am concerned with.

 

[vetteguy53081]

@Jay Hemdal or @vetteguy53081 how long would the lower dose of Chloroquine phosphate need to be? I could transfer them all into another observation tank afterwards if needed. Unless all stages are killed

Each dose lasting 10-14 days

 

[code4]

Each dose lasting 10-14 days

I have a habit of over thinking things. Sorry. Are you saying I can ise the chloroquine phosphate for 10-14 days to kill all stages in one dose? Do I then need to remove them to another observation tank? Or will all stages of the parasite be destroyed? And I can continue to watch them in the same tank. And would it then be okay to do water changes to remove the chloroquine phosphate?

Thank you

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have a habit of over thinking things. Sorry. Are you saying I can ise the chloroquine phosphate for 10-14 days to kill all stages in one dose? Do I then need to remove them to another observation tank? Or will all stages of the parasite be destroyed? And I can continue to watch them in the same tank. And would it then be okay to do water changes to remove the chloroquine phosphate?

Thank you

Watch them yes and be precise with CP which can be mis-used

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

It was at 40. I would be okay with doing a lower dose say 15-20. How long though?

Is that 40 mg per GALLON?

I'm talking ppm, which is mg / l, so that would be around 10.5 ppm, that's a low dose.

Like I said, I've not used chloroquine to treat flukes, but others have. The dose needs to be run for 30 days to ensure the eggs are all killed. I much prefer hyposalinity, since I have more experience with it and it has fewer side effects.

Here is an article I wrote about chloroquine some time ago:
https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/

 

[code4]

Is that 40 mg per GALLON?

I'm talking ppm, which is mg / l, so that would be around 10.5 ppm, that's a low dose.

Liker I said, I've not used chloroquine to treat flukes, but others have. The dose needs to be run for 30 days to ensure the eggs are all killed. I much prefer hyposalinity, since I have more experience with it and it has fewer side effects.

Here is an article I wrote about chloroquine some time ago:
https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/

I admit to being concerned with doing hypo or CP. I read an answer you gave using praziquantel. Can it be used in my situation still?

 

[code4]

@Jay Hemdal here is the post

Two prazi treatments is a typical clearing treatment for most flukes, but Neobendenia is very tough to manage. That calculator looks really cool, and seems to give you concrete numbers, but IMO, it is way too optimistic. If even one Neo egg remains, the infection can start up again. One course of treatment has five doses. Personally, I've gone to hyposalinity for 35 days as the best control method. You only need to go to half salinity (16 ppt) or a specific gravity of 1.0125 - but I often use full hypo (1.009) to control Cryptocaryon/ich at the same time.

Here is some text I wrote on them:

Neobenedenia melleni (eye flukes)​

These are relatively large (up to 8 mm), egg-laying worms that live on the skin or eyes of marine fishes.


Symptoms
Neobenedenia infections peak slowly; there may be no symptoms for weeks after you acquire a fish. Eventually, as the flukes multiply and grow in size, they begin to cause symptoms of disease.

The first obvious symptom may be slightly cloudy eyes, caused by the transparent fluke feeding on the eye tissue and eliciting a tissue reaction. This gives this worm the common name of “eye fluke,” although it is unknown whether these worms actually prefer to feed on eye tissue, or whether that is just where they first become apparent.

As the infection becomes more serious, the fish will “flash,” their skin color will become dull, their fins may become tattered, and they just generally get a “scruffy” look to them. Rapid breathing due to stress, possible secondary infection, and then death follow if treatment is not begun.


Diagnosis
The best means of diagnosis is to give the fish a five-minute freshwater dip. Not only does this knock back the infection by killing the adult parasites, but even a casual look at the bottom of the dip container afterwards will help to positively identify this disease. The worms turn whitish and fall to the bottom. Many aquarists mistake these for scales that were dislodged from the fish. However, looking at these “scales” under a dissecting microscope, or even a hand lens, will soon show them for what they are—dead worms.

Sometimes a fish’s history can help diagnosis at least the potential for this disease. Angelfishes and butterflyfishes are especially prone to Neobenedenia infections, so any of these fish that have been housed at an import facility that doesn’t prophylactically treat for trematodes stand a very good chance of being infected.


Angelfish, Pomacanthus sp. ++
Barrimundi, Lates sp. ++
Batfish, Platax sp. +++
Butterflyfish, Chaetodon sp. ++
Cichlid, Tilapia sp. +++ (when housed in seawater)
Invertebrates 0 (but may carry eggs)
Jacks, Caraganidae +++
Lionfish, Pterois sp. +
Lookdowns, Selene sp. +++
Pyramid butterflyfish, Hemitaurichthys sp. +++
Grouper family, Serranidae ++
Garden eel, Taenioconger sp. +
Remora, Echeneis sp. +
Sharks and rays, Elasmobranchs 0
Surgeonfish, Acanthurus sp. ++
Spadefish, Chaetodipterus faber +++



Aquarium hosts for Neobenedenia sp. 0=not infected, + = sometimes infected, ++=commonly infected, +++=very commonly infected (From Bullard et-al 2000 and personal obs.)

Treatment

Many people suggest using a freshwater dip as a treatment for all incoming fish. The two drawbacks to this are 1) the dips are not 100% effective (and do not harm the fluke eggs) and 2) newly acquired fish often do not stand up well to the added stress of a freshwater dip when they first arrive.

Neobenedenia eggs can take 14 (or longer?) to hatch as motile larvae called oncomiracidium. Additionally, the eggs have sticky tendrils that attach them securely to all manner of objects in an aquarium. There is some merit to the idea of keeping a treatment tank free of substrate and siphoning the bottom regularly in order to remove some of these unhatched eggs. There have been reports that Lysmata cleaner shrimp feed on these eggs, rendering them non-viable. However, it is unlikely that in a normal aquarium, with many other food choices, that cleaner shrimp will markedly reduce their numbers.
Any successful treatment for these worms must be undertaken in stages. The first treatment kills off the adult worms (but this won’t kill the eggs), and the subsequent treatments kill off the juvenile worms after they have all hatched but before any of them have matured and begun to lay eggs of their own. Due to variables in timing, it is virtually impossible to accomplish this in only two treatments.

Whole-tank formalin baths at 166 ppm for one hour will eliminate the adult flukes from an aquarium but not the eggs. Because this type of treatment has no residual effect, the treatment may need to be repeated every two weeks for two or three more times. Experience in public aquarium exhibits has shown that this method rarely clears a tank completely of this pest.

A better alternative is a Praziquantel treatment at 4 ppm, followed by a 50% water change after 48 hours, then a second treatment 9 to 10 days later, followed by another 50% water change 48 hours later.

At the aquarium I was the curator at, we noticed that multiple Praziquantel treatments on the same system, over months to years, required higher and higher doses, combined with increased frequency of the treatments in order to maintain effectiveness. Eventually, the praziquantel was simply no longer effective. One supposition was that the target parasites were building an immunity to the drug. That seemed unlikely as genetic change in multi-cellular organisms typically takes longer to happen (as opposed to drug-resistant bacteria that can develop resistance in short order). We wondered then, what could be rendering Praziquantel so ineffective on repeat doses?
Subsequent research indicates that bacterial degradation of the Praziquantel (Thomas et-al, 2016) is the process at work. Their study concluded that while Praziquantel is stable for over two weeks in sterile marine aquarium water, when dosed in working systems, it degrades below detectable limits in just nine days. A subsequent dose on the same system showed a reduction in Praziquantel in less than 48 hours. The presence or absence of fish in the system did not affect this rate of degradation. The natural bacterial population of the aquarium actually works to eliminate Praziquantel from the water.

Barrett L. Christie, a public aquarium curator, has researched a variety of treatment methods and has struck upon one that is highly effective. The treatment is relatively simple; in a quarantine system, the fish are exposed to hyposalinity (low salinity) for 30 days. Exactly how low of a salinity is the variable that needs to be controlled. Some species of fish do not tolerate lower salinities, yet if the salinity is not reduced enough, the parasite population is only reduced, not eradicated. Barrett has hit upon a workable value of 17 parts per thousand, a bit less than half the salinity of normal seawater (this equates to a specific gravity of around 1.013). Using a target of 16 ppt for 35 days is better, as it ensures that any errors in salinity measurement or timing won’t affect the treatment. Obviously, most invertebrates cannot be present during this sort of treatment. Sharks and some rays cannot tolerate it either. Assuming the fish are healthy in all other respects, you begin this treatment by lowering the salinity to the target value over 24 to 48 hours. During the low salinity treatment, water quality must be monitored closely, especially pH. Be aware that some other diseases, notably Uronema and Amyloodinium thrive at lower salinities. Luckily, another common scourge, marine ich, Cryptocaryon irritans, is also inhibited by low salinity. After 35 days, the salinity is gradually raised back to normal. It is imperative to perform this change back to normal seawater very slowly. While marine fish tolerate a drop in salinity very well, their kidneys have more difficulty adjusting as the salinity is raised. Never return fish to normal salinity faster than 72 hours, and don’t make large changes at one time.

Jay

Thanks, I have both PraziPro and Praziquantel on hand.

 

[code4]

Here is some text I wrote on them:

Neobenedenia melleni (eye flukes)​

A better alternative is a Praziquantel treatment at 4 ppm, followed by a 50% water change after 48 hours, then a second treatment 9 to 10 days later, followed by another 50% water change 48 hours later.

At the aquarium I was the curator at, we noticed that multiple Praziquantel treatments on the same system, over months to years, required higher and higher doses, combined with increased frequency of the treatments in order to maintain effectiveness. Eventually, the praziquantel was simply no longer effective. One supposition was that the target parasites were building an immunity to the drug. That seemed unlikely as genetic change in multi-cellular organisms typically takes longer to happen (as opposed to drug-resistant bacteria that can develop resistance in short order). We wondered then, what could be rendering Praziquantel so ineffective on repeat doses?
Subsequent research indicates that bacterial degradation of the Praziquantel (Thomas et-al, 2016) is the process at work. Their study concluded that while Praziquantel is stable for over two weeks in sterile marine aquarium water, when dosed in working systems, it degrades below detectable limits in just nine days. A subsequent dose on the same system showed a reduction in Praziquantel in less than 48 hours. The presence or absence of fish in the system did not affect this rate of degradation. The natural bacterial population of the aquarium actually works to eliminate Praziquantel from the water.

Barrett L. Christie, a public aquarium curator, has researched a variety of treatment methods and has struck upon one that is highly effective. The treatment is relatively simple; in a quarantine system, the fish are exposed to hyposalinity (low salinity) for 30 days. Exactly how low of a salinity is the variable that needs to be controlled. Some species of fish do not tolerate lower salinities, yet if the salinity is not reduced enough, the parasite population is only reduced, not eradicated. Barrett has hit upon a workable value of 17 parts per thousand, a bit less than half the salinity of normal seawater (this equates to a specific gravity of around 1.013). Using a target of 16 ppt for 35 days is better, as it ensures that any errors in salinity measurement or timing won’t affect the treatment. Obviously, most invertebrates cannot be present during this sort of treatment. Sharks and some rays cannot tolerate it either. Assuming the fish are healthy in all other respects, you begin this treatment by lowering the salinity to the target value over 24 to 48 hours. During the low salinity treatment, water quality must be monitored closely, especially pH. Be aware that some other diseases, notably Uronema and Amyloodinium thrive at lower salinities. Luckily, another common scourge, marine ich, Cryptocaryon irritans, is also inhibited by low salinity. After 35 days, the salinity is gradually raised back to normal. It is imperative to perform this change back to normal seawater very slowly. While marine fish tolerate a drop in salinity very well, their kidneys have more difficulty adjusting as the salinity is raised. Never return fish to normal salinity faster than 72 hours, and don’t make large changes at one time.

Jay

Jay sorry to be such a bother. One more question. You stated above, I removed some of your original post above for ease of locating it.

Dose at 4ppm. Is that the same as the directions on the bottle which say: 5 ml treats 25 gallons?

And should 3 treatments be sufficient at 7 day intervals?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Jay sorry to be such a bother. One more question. You stated above, I removed some of your original post above for ease of locating it.

Dose at 4ppm. Is that the same as the directions on the bottle which say: 5 ml treats 25 gallons?

And should 3 treatments be sufficient at 7 day intervals?

Sorry - I don’t know the concentration of their product.

The 4 ppm dose that I reference above is used in tanks where the prazi consuming bacteria has grown. For the first 3 or 4 treatments, the bacteria won’t yet have grown, so you can use the 2 to 2.5 ppm dose.

Timing of the doses is always a bit of a guess….

 

[kingranch2003]

Jay sorry to be such a bother. One more question. You stated above, I removed some of your original post above for ease of locating it.

Dose at 4ppm. Is that the same as the directions on the bottle which say: 5 ml treats 25 gallons?

And should 3 treatments be sufficient at 7 day intervals?

@ReefSquad

 

[Rocks reef]

I wholeheartedly trust what @Jay Hemdal says and recommends.

 

[code4]

Is a freshwater dip needed before treatment?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Is a freshwater dip needed before treatment?

No - that only adds extra stress. To be honest, I only use FW dips as a diagnostic tool to use a microscope to look at the settled dip water for parasites.

 

[code4]

Thanks everyone. I double checked my water volume without anything but water in the tank. Set it at 22.5 gallons. Followed the directions on bottle. Which said 5ml for 25 gallons. So half dose for my 12.5 gallons. Dosed the liquid praziquantel I have. He acted a bit agitated. The larger fluke like thing on his eye is gone this morning. He does still appear to have something from where the large fluke was. It should heal.

All fish appear fine and still eating.

 

[code4]

Just for the curious folks information. The stuff on the bottom of the tank is either bits of rock from a cycled rock in the tank or some small amount of food. I use a small hose to remove it several times a day. Within 20 minutes of feeding.

And there are 2 baby mollies in the floating breeder container. They are both fine also.

 

[code4]

Pyramid looks good. Always hungry. Looks like a fluke may have hatched. Saturday will be 7 days and will dose again.

 

[code4]

After much research and consideration I have decided to switch treatment method. Will continue with praziquantel until ready to switch to hypo.

I decided I would not be sure of total eradication without doing this.

Ordered a Pinpoint salinity monitor today. Will start to slowly lower salinity ln quarantine tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

After much research and consideration I have decided to switch treatment method. Will continue with praziquantel until ready to switch to hypo.

I decided I would not be sure of total eradication without doing this.

Ordered a Pinpoint salinity monitor today. Will start to slowly lower salinity ln quarantine tank.

I've had issues with that device - perhaps they've fixed those, I stopped using them many years ago. For sure, you'll want to use multiple devices to judge the salinity/specific gravity during hypo, try to reach a consensus. The old German glass hydrometers are the best, but I can't source those any more. The Coralife Deep Six swing arm hydrometer goes down to 1.0000, and I've gotten decent results with them.

 

[code4]

I've had issues with that device - perhaps they've fixed those, I stopped using them many years ago. For sure, you'll want to use multiple devices to judge the salinity/specific gravity during hypo, try to reach a consensus. The old German glass hydrometers are the best, but I can't source those any more. The Coralife Deep Six swing arm hydrometer goes down to 1.0000, and I've gotten decent results with them.

@Randy Holmes Farley believed it would work after calibration. I do have multiple devices. Will keep a close eye on it. Thanks

Other than that do you think my plan is a good solution to getting the fish clear of flukes?