Dino tank crash

[jdpeters]

So my 5~ month old reef got dinos a month+ ago and it’s just completely got out of control. First things to actually go was some birdsnest, and 4 fish. Snails started dropping and what of the corals that survived the initial onset are on their way out. I think I was water changing too much and let my nutrients bottom out.

I started dosing phosphate and nitrate, blowing rocks off and changing socks regularly. Now I have red cyano in addition to a OUT of control dino outbreak.

I’m absolute frustrated with this. This was my 3rd tank I’ve set up, I’ve never dealt with this or struggled in this fashion. At a certain point is a tear down and sanitation reasonable? I’m literally on the cusp of losing my finally livestock. Even my copepods are dead.

Any thoughts?

 

[Reefer Matt]

So my 5~ month old reef got dinos a month+ ago and it’s just completely got out of control. First things to actually go was some birdsnest, and 4 fish. Snails started dropping and what of the corals that survived the initial onset are on their way out. I think I was water changing too much and let my nutrients bottom out.

I started dosing phosphate and nitrate, blowing rocks off and changing socks regularly. Now I have red cyano in addition to a OUT of control dino outbreak.

I’m absolute frustrated with this. This was my 3rd tank I’ve set up, I’ve never dealt with this or struggled in this fashion. At a certain point is a tear down and sanitation reasonable? I’m literally on the cusp of losing my finally livestock. Even my copepods are dead.

Any thoughts?

Sorry for your luck. If it were me, I’d buy or borrow a microscope to id which dinos you are dealing with. It may be as simple as running a uv filter if a certain species is the cause. I have gotten rid of ostreopsis dinos this way. Other species may require other remedies. In the meantime, do they go away at night and return when the lights come on, or are they always there?

 

[jdpeters]

Sorry for your luck. If it were me, I’d buy or borrow a microscope to id which dinos you are dealing with. It may be as simple as running a uv filter if a certain species is the cause. I have gotten rid of ostreopsis dinos this way. Other species may require other remedies. In the meantime, do they go away at night and return when the lights come on, or are they always there?

I put on a green killing machine today but doubtful it’s that effective. I’m not opposed to purchasing a good unit but I feel like I’m past the point of fixing it. I wouldn’t care all that much but the tank doesn’t smell good and it’s in my living room of a small house.

My son has a microscope according to my wife I will give that a shot tomorrow.

They do seem to go away over night and come back after the lights have been on a bit.

 

[bubbgee]

I put on a green killing machine today but doubtful it’s that effective. I’m not opposed to purchasing a good unit but I feel like I’m past the point of fixing it. I wouldn’t care all that much but the tank doesn’t smell good and it’s in my living room of a small house.

My son has a microscope according to my wife I will give that a shot tomorrow.

They do seem to go away over night and come back after the lights have been on a bit.

I had to get a UV lamp rated 5x than my tank to beat dinos. Plus dosed a ton of phyto, bacteria, pods, silicates and mud (Aquaforest Life Source) too. You need to introduce something that will outcompete the dinos, otherwise it'll be like this.

 

[ReefQuestCorals]

Here is a good read on h2o2 (hydrogen peroxide) dosing that helped another fellow reefer, might read over the first few pages as he explains how he beat Dino's

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-my-experience-h2o2-reefing-tool.52084/

 

[Mark-Stover]

Go to Facebook and look at “Mack’s Reef…Dinoflagellate Support Group”. Read the documentation (I’ll attach it here) look at your Dino’s under a microscope. Honest, their advice works like a charm.

 

[ReefQuestCorals]

I had to get a UV lamp rated 5x than my tank to beat dinos. Plus dosed a ton of phyto, bacteria, pods, silicates and mud (Aquaforest Life Source) too. You need to introduce something that will outcompete the dinos, otherwise it'll be like this.

This is what I was about to say as well! Seeing his tank has crashed I figured h2o2 might be a easier and cheaper alternative to try first.

But if h2o2 doesnt work, this is my approach

 

[Reef.]

Don’t bother trying to ID them, its UV if they disappear at night and a killing machine is probably not up to it …or removing them with scrubbing rocks out of the water, vacuuming sand into a 1 micron sock then returning the water, scrapping the glass, cleaning the powerheads etc etc etc you need to do this at a minimum daily but more if you can manage it, change carbon 2 times a week and dose silicates daily, you can do water changes but you may see they get worse with water changes, if so stop those, some dinos multiply with fresh water changes some don’t, you can carry on with a skimmer if you have one, you should see an improvement almost straight away but you need to carry on for a good 1-2 weeks after you think you have won the battle.

No easy fix its hard work, slack up for just a day and you will be back to the start again.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

I'm going to send you this thread. This helped me battle them, but ultimately I had to shut my tank down due to multiple issues.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

 

[jdpeters]

I had to get a UV lamp rated 5x than my tank to beat dinos. Plus dosed a ton of phyto, bacteria, pods, silicates and mud (Aquaforest Life Source) too. You need to introduce something that will outcompete the dinos, otherwise it'll be like this.

What bacteria and phyto worked for you? Can it be dormant phyto?

did you just put the mud in your sump?

 

[bubbgee]

What bacteria and phyto worked for you? Can it be dormant phyto?

did you just put the mud in your sump?

My regimen after beating osteoporosis a few times already the past 18 months

UV: Run 24/7 during treatment. Oversize it. Mine is 5x my overall volume size. I run it now for 6 hours a day as maintenance during night time. It's overkill but follow the 1w per 3 gallons recommendation.

Live phyto. I started growing my own cultures because I had persistent dinos for years. Just dump a cup every night. Plus corals like having live food too.

Mud: AF Life source is served in a scooper and dosed as you would with coral snow. I just dilute it in the sump and will broadcast into the return and cover the display in gray bloom. I dose at lights out and will just clear out in the morning. Dose half the recommended weekly. I alternate this with Coral Snow after 3 or 4 days.

CoralSnow: Follow this:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/extreme-water-clarity-and-cyano-eradication-made-easy.916381/
Bacteria: Dr Tim's Waste Away, Microbacter7 and PNS ProBio. I dose alternately every day following dosing regimen.

Daily: Dose silicates like sponge excel. A few drops every day and start a diatom bloom. Do NOT clean your glass, let the algae and slime build up for a couple of weeks.

Live Pods: Weekly one bottle.

You can dose peroxide but I end up losing SPS frags in the process. The trick they say is to dilute the peroxide in a 10% peroxide/90% tank water mix and use the sump to dose it through the return. I didnt bother with it since I got the UV.

Skimmer collector cup is off but I run skimmer non stop back into the fuge. No GFO, no carbon.
Stopped all sources of trace and aminos-- we aren't sure what trace elements dinos feed on and aminos always feeds dinos in my tank so I stopped using all aminos altogether (especially acropower). I do add a filter pad inside the display to absorb free-floating dinos and take it out at night, replaced with a fresh one.

The strategy here is to overwhelm dino population with different sources of biodiversity which is what the dinos did when overwhelming your tank's biome. The UV kills off a ton of good and bad stuff at the same time, but you are adding and reinforcing your good biome faster than the dinos can recover. This way, it'll go back into balance. The diatoms are food for pods so it's a good thing. Cyano is handled by the coral snow. The mud adds a lot of biodiversity from the dormant bacteria that wakes up after dosing (at least that's the explanation). From my own observation, what it does is add a biofilm on the surface of rocks and sand that prevents dinos, GHA and bryopsis from having a foothold-- accelerating your tank's maturity faster than just dosing bacteria.

Hope this helps. If it's a different strain of Dinos, I would only replace the UV with the wand type since you need to nuke them in the sand. But otherwise, the strategy will still work. I never turned off the lights since I end up killing more corals that way when I tried.

 

[Pntbll687]

So my 5~ month old reef got dinos a month+ ago and it’s just completely got out of control. First things to actually go was some birdsnest, and 4 fish. Snails started dropping and what of the corals that survived the initial onset are on their way out. I think I was water changing too much and let my nutrients bottom out.

I started dosing phosphate and nitrate, blowing rocks off and changing socks regularly. Now I have red cyano in addition to a OUT of control dino outbreak.

I’m absolute frustrated with this. This was my 3rd tank I’ve set up, I’ve never dealt with this or struggled in this fashion. At a certain point is a tear down and sanitation reasonable? I’m literally on the cusp of losing my finally livestock. Even my copepods are dead.

Any thoughts?

You need to manually remove as much as possible or you'll be stuck for a LONG time.

Siphoning the sand, blowing off the rocks, siphoning out the water through filter sock and put the water back in, using a micron filter, will all help. The key is reducing the population of dinos QUICKLY. This reduces the amount of dinos in the tank that can reproduce and repopulate.

Keep doing this, AND add nutrients and bacteria to help the process. Add the nutrients and bacteria AFTER you siphon out the dinos.

 

[bubbgee]

You need to manually remove as much as possible or you'll be stuck for a LONG time.

Siphoning the sand, blowing off the rocks, siphoning out the water through filter sock and put the water back in, using a micron filter, will all help. The key is reducing the population of dinos QUICKLY. This reduces the amount of dinos in the tank that can reproduce and repopulate.

Keep doing this, AND add nutrients and bacteria to help the process. Add the nutrients and bacteria AFTER you siphon out the dinos.

Yup. I did this with a filter pad clipped in the display and dosed the bacteria at night.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I put on a green killing machine today but doubtful it’s that effective. I’m not opposed to purchasing a good unit but I feel like I’m past the point of fixing it. I wouldn’t care all that much but the tank doesn’t smell good and it’s in my living room of a small house.

My son has a microscope according to my wife I will give that a shot tomorrow.

They do seem to go away over night and come back after the lights have been on a bit.

Green killing machine very ineffective (somewhat with algae) and Do not add nutrients which feeds the dino - That comes later. When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and Its important though to identify the type of dino for most effective battle.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10% IF you have light dependant corals such as SPS) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights which works as an oxidizer. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED AMINO OR ADD NOPOX which is food for dinos, however you can feed coral, food which will help no3 and po4 to increase. If increasing nutrients, try to keep no3 to about 5 until you are done battling these cells.
Doing a daily siphoning will help greatly But . . . . . Siphoning will reduce nutrients , so siphon the water into/through a filter sock and save the water and return it back to tank. Obviously clean the filter sock each time.
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

 

[jdpeters]

Green killing machine very ineffective (somewhat with algae) and Do not add nutrients which feeds the dino - That comes later. When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and Its important though to identify the type of dino for most effective battle.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10% IF you have light dependant corals such as SPS) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights which works as an oxidizer. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED AMINO OR ADD NOPOX which is food for dinos, however you can feed coral, food which will help no3 and po4 to increase. If increasing nutrients, try to keep no3 to about 5 until you are done battling these cells.
Doing a daily siphoning will help greatly But . . . . . Siphoning will reduce nutrients , so siphon the water into/through a filter sock and save the water and return it back to tank. Obviously clean the filter sock each time.
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

When you say biological deficiency, is it possible to assume that it being a dry rock and bare bottom just makes it less stable due to the lack of biodiversity? I kicked started it with xlm and microbactr7 and felt early on everything was going great for 3-4 months.

I figured that my Dino’s was primarily from the nutrients bottoming out.

I assumed that the it was going to be easy mode and once I added corals from TSA I assumed I’d get some diversity from that.

If I apply your methods and beat it, at what point can I add sand and rock from TBS? I invested so much time and resources getting this system going, it’s killing me that this was my least successful start ever. I want to add live sand and rock then switch over to a flowy softy tank.

 

[jdpeters]

Green killing machine very ineffective (somewhat with algae) and Do not add nutrients which feeds the dino - That comes later. When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and Its important though to identify the type of dino for most effective battle.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10% IF you have light dependant corals such as SPS) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights which works as an oxidizer. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED AMINO OR ADD NOPOX which is food for dinos, however you can feed coral, food which will help no3 and po4 to increase. If increasing nutrients, try to keep no3 to about 5 until you are done battling these cells.
Doing a daily siphoning will help greatly But . . . . . Siphoning will reduce nutrients , so siphon the water into/through a filter sock and save the water and return it back to tank. Obviously clean the filter sock each time.
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

Sorry but to add on, I only have 2 remaining corals, most of my snails died and my fish died early on once I had Dino’s proliferate. Would a black out be the most effective approach or is it all the points of attack combined?

 

[vetteguy53081]

When you say biological deficiency, is it possible to assume that it being a dry rock and bare bottom just makes it less stable due to the lack of biodiversity? I kicked started it with xlm and microbactr7 and felt early on everything was going great for 3-4 months.

I figured that my Dino’s was primarily from the nutrients bottoming out.

I assumed that the it was going to be easy mode and once I added corals from TSA I assumed I’d get some diversity from that.

If I apply your methods and beat it, at what point can I add sand and rock from TBS? I invested so much time and resources getting this system going, it’s killing me that this was my least successful start ever. I want to add live sand and rock then switch over to a flowy softy tank.

deficiency would be low to no nitrates and phosphates

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sorry but to add on, I only have 2 remaining corals, most of my snails died and my fish died early on once I had Dino’s proliferate. Would a black out be the most effective approach or is it all the points of attack combined?

Black out highly effective

 

[jdpeters]

You need to manually remove as much as possible or you'll be stuck for a LONG time.

Siphoning the sand, blowing off the rocks, siphoning out the water through filter sock and put the water back in, using a micron filter, will all help. The key is reducing the population of dinos QUICKLY. This reduces the amount of dinos in the tank that can reproduce and repopulate.

Keep doing this, AND add nutrients and bacteria to help the process. Add the nutrients and bacteria AFTER you siphon out the dinos.

What’s so bizarre is that I thought raising nutrients was going to be the most effective. There was like a day early on where I thought I beat it but since then there’s been some days where the tank is COATED

Don’t bother trying to ID them, its UV if they disappear at night and a killing machine is probably not up to it …or removing them with scrubbing rocks out of the water, vacuuming sand into a 1 micron sock then returning the water, scrapping the glass, cleaning the powerheads etc etc etc you need to do this at a minimum daily but more if you can manage it, change carbon 2 times a week and dose silicates daily, you can do water changes but you may see they get worse with water changes, if so stop those, some dinos multiply with fresh water changes some don’t, you can carry on with a skimmer if you have one, you should see an improvement almost straight away but you need to carry on for a good 1-2 weeks after you think you have won the battle.

No easy fix its hard work, slack up for just a day and you will be back to the start again.

you know I’m glad you mention it, after my last water change it was 10x worse within a few hours. Also, it disappears every night.

Black out highly effective

I appreciate the response.
My kid has a microscope I will attempt to id.

I knew the green killing machine is trash but I had it laying around. Are you in favor of running UV? I have a manifold ready to go. I’m going to order some bacteria. I’d prefer to throw money at it in stead of restarting.

Additionally, I’m ok with sacrificing my last two corals at this point, I’ve nearly lost everything down to the dang copepods. Should I wrap the tank to get ambient light out? It’s not in direct sunlight.

 

[vetteguy53081]

What’s so bizarre is that I thought raising nutrients was going to be the most effective. There was like a day early on where I thought I beat it but since then there’s been some days where the tank is COATED

you know I’m glad you mention it, after my last water change it was 10x worse within a few hours. Also, it disappears every night.

I appreciate the response.
My kid has a microscope I will attempt to id.

I knew the green killing machine is trash but I had it laying around. Are you in favor of running UV? I have a manifold ready to go. I’m going to order some bacteria. I’d prefer to throw money at it in stead of restarting.

Additionally, I’m ok with sacrificing my last two corals at this point, I’ve nearly lost everything down to the dang copepods. Should I wrap the tank to get ambient light out? It’s not in direct sunlight.

Uv yes for this issue, disease and algae.
Problem is UV will not erase what is existing but moving forward will address what passes through the unit itself.