Dinos have taken over [emoji24]

[ReefWithCare]

It looks worse in person. I see the bubbles and the stringly stuff. Pretty sure it’s dinos. My levels are very low as you can see in the pictures. I tried blacking out for 5 days. It got them down but they came roaring back. I shut off my skimmer and dosed KN03 which gotnmy nitrates out of zero range - but Phosphate is 0.

I tried to do a UV - but I ordered a Jabeo 55W which got shipped broken. I have only fish no corals, and pods. Tank has been up about 4 months. Just trying to get my nutrients up and struggling. I think the next thing is shutting off the ATS and letting the tank go natural to get levels up.

I could feed more but my fish look like they are going to explode. I could add more bioload with the tangs I have in QT [emoji848]. Open to ideas that isn’t a full take down.

 

[sfin52]

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info:

• some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak
• how to avoid common dino outbreaks
• and what do if your tank is already having an outbreak

Let's get started!

Common Contributing Factors
Some of the most common factors that contribute to the dino outbreaks we cover in this thread are:

• the tank being new, rock being immature or the tank being otherwise highly disturbed, such as by other harsh tank treatments
• hard core nutrient reduction tools being used, such as
  • organic carbon dosing
  • excess "bio media"
  • algae filtration
  • nutrient adsorbing media like GFO

These four factors, or excess nutrient removal generally, play – usually in combination; rarely just one factor alone – pretty directly into dino's conversion to the blooming, phagotrophic, mat forming, toxin-producing side of their nature.

• Starvation Is Their Cue
  • Dino's seem to prefer life as autotrophic epiphytes on macro algae – chaeto morpha seems to be one of their favorite types to host in. (Maybe this fact can be useful to us; maybe sometimes chaeto ought not be used, or used with special consideration)
  • For several reasons, dino's seem to be terrible at nutrient uptake. This means they are more prone to starvation than many or most other microorganisms they have to compete with.....especially bacteria, which can scavenge free nutrients down to CRAZY low levels...low enough to starve out other microbes or algae.
  • With their protective mucus mats, potential to generate wicked toxins, and ability to survive not only by way of photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients, but alternately, when times get tough, by "eating their neighbors". (The least of their tricks.)
  • Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment. Keep reading!

How To Avoid Having A Dino Outbreak
In a nutshell, here's how to avoid dino outbreaks and begin to normalize your tank if you already have an outbreak:

• Phosphate Control
  • DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Nitrate Control
  • Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
  • See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Starvation conditions (zero or near-zero nitrate or phosphate levels) should be avoided.
  • Keep in mind that dissolved nutrients are not "waste products" to be eliminated
  • They are nutrients for the critters you care about like corals
  • The are also nutrients for a potential multitude of mostly-unknown/anonymous microbes that are needed to bring stability to a new tank.
  • Once excess nutrients have an impact, in fact, they usually can't be simply eliminated with media anyway – they've probably already had an impact on the tank's microbial cycle. (See blog link #3 at bottom.)
  • This all adds up to skipping almost all "extra" nutrient removing steps during the tank's initial development. This period seems to be especially critical, and longer in a tank started with dry, dead rock. Don't use anything until it's absolutely needed and other options have been fully exhausted...and be conservative with how you apply any nutrient removing tool.

What to do if you're tank is already having a dino outbreak
When attempting to control an organism like a dinoflagellate, confirming the ID will help, if possible:

• So to begin with, make sure you have Dinos – you should have multiple factors at work...these factors were mentioned in the first section above. The less these factors seem to describe your tank, the less likely any of this advice will be correct for your situation – so post questions!
  • no special equipment is needed to confirm whether your algae sample has dino's and/or other algae
  • Use @taricha's dino confirmation guide on posts #986-987.
• Once you have confirmed that you have dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting. (Multiple species blooms seem almost as common as single-strain blooms.)
  • A basic 1200x microscope will be useful and doesn't have to be fancier than a $15 toy scope. Even a $50 scope is a lot nicer, if you think you might be more serious about it.
  • See: Selecting a microscope for more discussion.

• Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha and @Beardo have already made ID's:
• (Click the link. Then click the SEARCH button at the bottom of the search page.)
  • ostreopsis
    • Consider focusing first on posts #86 and #905
  • prorocentrum
  • amphidinium
    • Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods (they are unique and somewhat more experimental)
  • coolia
  • (other searches coming)

• Extra Measures
  Generally, these tools will give extra control in terms of removing and/or killing cells in the water column....usually, along with other measures explained here, expediting the close of the dino bloom.
  • UV
    You can find discussions throughout the thread by using this search, with a great breakout of spec's on post #3770.
  • Diatom Filtration
    Effective, but not that popular. The more common units like the classic Vortex are somewhat difficult to use, and the newer units like the new Marineland Polishing Filter are relatively unknown. Still worthy of consideration.

So, after you get a measure of control, make sure you read What is the End Game?

Miscellaneous Goodies

• Post #2725 has a great diary of tank observations, test results and time-series graphs during the treatment for dino's from one of our members.
• Disturbances we cause in our tanks are what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
  • See: Evidence for the Existence of Three Primary Strategies in Plants and Its Relevance to Ecological and Evolutionary Theory

• Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.

• Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.

• E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.

• If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!

• One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.

2¢

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

1. The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
2. Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
   
3. Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

(Also cross-posted in the old Dino thread!)

 

[sfin52]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

 

[Velcro]

Get the UV replaced. Buy some phosphorus and dose to 0.1 ppm. Run the UV at about 100-200 gph. Do a three day lights out once you add the UV.

 

[ReefWithCare]

Ya the main problem is I can’t get a good ID off the scope. The scopes I have are junk and can’t get a good image. The I did post a while back and someone said I had cyanos - but these have bubbles [emoji848]

 

[Velcro]

Ya the main problem is I can’t get a good ID off the scope. The scopes I have are junk and can’t get a good image. The I did post a while back and someone said I had cyanos - but these have bubbles [emoji848]

Do they seem to be lower in numbers a few hours after lights out?

 

[ReefWithCare]

Do they seem to be lower in numbers a few hours after lights out?

Yes they go down in the morning. They also went down quite a bit when I did the black out and then came roaring back.

The fish don’t seem to mind the Dinos and are very healthy and fat. I have no corals atm

 

[Velcro]

Yes they go down in the morning. They also went down quite a bit when I did the black out and then came roaring back.

The fish don’t seem to mind the Dinos and are very healthy and fat. I have no corals atm

If the seem reduced when lights are out then you'll probably see results with UV.

 

[ReefWithCare]

If the seem reduced when lights are out then you'll probably see results with UV.

Ya I just need to receive one that isn’t broken lol. Do I need to worry about my fish eating them? Mostly concerned about tangs trying to eat it.

 

[Velcro]

Ya I just need to receive one that isn’t broken lol. Do I need to worry about my fish eating them? Mostly concerned about tangs trying to eat it.

Nah, I've never had issues with that. Inverts are another story though.

 

[ReefWithCare]

Sorry double posted XD

 

[ReefWithCare]

Nah, I've never had issues with that. Inverts are another story though.

Thanks. The only invert I have right now are pods. I have been seeing a lot less pods since the outbreak

 

[sfin52]

Run activated carbon. Dino's can and will release toxins. Servival strategy. Use the link it helped me. Same as you lost loads of snails, pods and coral.

 

[ReefWithCare]

Get the UV replaced. Buy some phosphorus and dose to 0.1 ppm. Run the UV at about 100-200 gph. Do a three day lights out once you add the UV.

Oh forgot to ask - can you recommend a Phosphate dosing source --- I used KN03 to get my nitrates up --- but it did not do anything to get my Phosphates up. I can't seem to feed my current fish enough to get nutrients up as they are always fat

 

[dwest]

Oh forgot to ask - can you recommend a Phosphate dosing source --- I used KN03 to get my nitrates up --- but it did not do anything to get my Phosphates up. I can't seem to feed my current fish enough to get nutrients up as they are always fat

Flourish

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002APIJQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Velcro]

This is what I use

 

[Velcro]

Flourish

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002APIJQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This works too. Probably the same exact thing except less concentrated than the aquavitro version.

 

[ReefWithCare]

This works too. Probably the same exact thing except less concentrated than the aquavitro version.

Ya the only thing I was concerned about is spiking nitrates too much because my nitrates read 10 now and phosphates are 0. Any concerns with just going with flourish. I can get flourish readily at Petco which is helpful if I’m in a bind (they stay open late)

 

[ReefWithCare]

Same question with carbon - can I just use Seachem or marine land carbon - it’s readily available here —- the stuff from BRS will take 5 days to get here [emoji85]

 

[Velcro]

Ya the only thing I was concerned about is spiking nitrates too much because my nitrates read 10 now and phosphates are 0. Any concerns with just going with flourish. I can get flourish readily at Petco which is helpful if I’m in a bind (they stay open late)

You specifically want the flourish PHOSPHOROUS if you get the seachem product. I think they have another one called "flourish" that has nitrates, phosphates and a bunch of minerals (including copper).