diy amino acid

[Russ265]

:D :rolleyes:

give me a challenge. ill house 2 separate tanks of the same species.

AA wont add anything. ever. case closed. no proof otherwise. no color, no health, no nothing.

just gut feely goods because you say so.

it is THAT ridiculous. sell that snake oil elsewhere.

 

[bif24701]

you never surpassed 300 par either judging by these photos.

Why do you say that? I'm easily over 300, confirmed.

 

[bif24701]

I have had reef tanks for years and through my years i have learned that people are making it way too complicated . Most good salt mixes these days have everything you need. With regulars water changes you should have all the components necessary to maintain a reef. I have fallen in the past on adding all these snake oils which i find do more harm that good. Keep it simple and enjoy your tank.

I agree.

I add SELCON to fortify my feedings. Needed? I don't think so, however I get a great response from my corals with its use. I have a low nutrient system and add it to ensure my corals are feed well.

 

[bif24701]

you never surpassed 300 par either judging by these photos.

Can you explain how you deduced that from photos?

 

[mcarroll]

Perhaps I missed something in the references but has anyone placed markers on dfaa to see if they are selectively absorbed.

The articles are a ways back, but....yes they have, and yes they do. :)

Check out post #64.

Aren't amino acids just carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen. So I thought this would simply break down to carbon and nitrogen in sea water. Basically carbon dosing with nitrogen.

Other than being unable to gauge the rate of carbon or nitrogen input, what's the problem? :)

Most good salt mixes these days have everything you need. With regulars water changes you should have all the components necessary to maintain a reef.

You're not wrong - I remember those days. :)

However, until my schedule and/or budget can be changed so I can go back to the old days, the articles linked in post #64 really, really have my attention. :) :) :)

My guess is that I'm not the only one in a similar position. That said, I consider aminos experimental. Nobody using them appears to have a way of testing for concentration in the water, so no way to gauge anything. This is not a non-starter, but it is problematic IMO. People do have problems dosing amino's sometimes...mostly algae outbreaks as far as I can tell.

give me a challenge. ill house 2 separate tanks of the same species.

AA wont add anything. ever. case closed. no proof otherwise. no color, no health, no nothing.

just gut feely goods because you say so.

it is THAT ridiculous. sell that snake oil elsewhere.

I love it!! :D

lost a carpenter wrasse because of jumping

Why no screen top in your case? I had a sixline jump (my first fish) and I gave up keeping fish that had any record of jumping at all. (Yeah, that rules out a lot of fish.) I never got around to making a screen top (nor getting more fish other than my non-jumping barnacle blennies) cuz I was always mostly in it for the corals. :P:cool:

 

[McMullen]

Just as the body does not make all of the necessary amino acids to survive, I guess it would be advantageous to ask, what amino's do corals or their symbiodinium NOT make, that is necessary? Though it's shown corals do utilize them, I think it's far-fetched to say AA dosing doesn't do anything. I would wager there's some they don't need, but just as there are essential amino acids for just about every organism, the probability is not in favor of 'aa's are junk'.

Are you comparing the complexity of the human body to coral? It is clear that at least some coral use some amino's. It's a giant leap to think they must use all of them. Oh and anyone who is feeding foods with protein is feeding amino acids.

Clearly amino acids are not junk, as I stated. Supplementing AA's in the reef tank is junk! Again, the benefit from supplementation is most likely from the broken down 'parts,' and not coral utilization. To think that coral will get something extra just does not make since. Their has to be some biologic reason and need; Coral may use amino A so I'm going to dose amino B, C, and D because it must need those as well?

 

[mcarroll]

Supplementing AA's in the reef tank is junk!

If they have been demonstrated to take up amino's directly, then I don't see how that's a supportable statement.

I think amino acids are ancient molecules, so there's no reason to suspect any life is incapable of using them for their intended purposes....even if we don't understand that purpose.

Check out Wikipedia's page on amino acids – especially sections of Part 3 Occurrence and functions in biochemistry and all of Part 4 Uses in industry.

 

[Alfrareef]

Wikipedia? Really? Come on...
I just would like to read the explanation for the under 300 PAR statement by Russ265.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't really understand what folks are debating. If it has been shown that corals take up at least some amino acids (see link above), and obviously they use amino acids to make proteins, then it is at least possible that this is useful for them.

You might argue that you or someone else) has tested it and observed no useful effect, but there's no theoretical reason to claim it isn't useful, and any test may only apply the a specific tank with its different levels of different types of available foods and nutrients.

 

[McMullen]

The argument is not whether or not coral use 'some' aminos, rather is dosing useful, important, or necessary. Protein containing fish food contains AA's. Some of the food either break down or fish poop should be available for coral uptake. Now again, if you have very few fish with lots of coral then maybe.........and that is a cautious maybe that their could be some benefit........if your starving your system. I have read the above article and though fascinating and interesting in no way suggests or supports buying a bottle of AA's and dosing.

Following this same logic, any organism that uses or requires AA's should have supplemental AA's supplied. It ignores how the organism naturally receives them or makes them. This isn't accidental evolutionary coincidences and some organisms may benefit from us tinkering. This is GOD created organisms and he gave all life the ability to 'get' what it or they need.

 

[dragon99]

Great thread, learned some stuff, but I think we've hit the wall

M: I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

 

[mcarroll]

It's a form of feeding that corals are demonstrably able to use.

We don't seem to be the first crowd to figure out that amino acids can be directly beneficial....just that we figured out "oh, hey, corals also benefit from them like so many other organisms".

There are many many questions, but I fail to see any controversy that doesn't trace back to a product claim or person claiming unrealistic results....nothing to do with amino acids or their potential role in coral husbandry.

2¢

Still reading.... :)

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I like it when people state things as facts, that are not backed up by any references, nor have any bearing in a conversation that has clearly shown the suggestion of the question to be otherwise. On top of it, I think many people throw around the term 'snake oil' because they don't have anything else logical to say, nor have they even done any research on the net to deduce any contradictory evidence.

Though that's a trend in the hobby I've seen fairly exclusively TO this hobby, I'm still unclear as to why this is, but I guess when the internet was introduced and freely available to the masses, you will get EVERY kind of person. I recall when I got into the hobby years ago, carbon dosing was an experimental thing. I myself being a man of science went down this road and asked questions. I was flamed, called ignorant, told it wasn't necessary, and poked fun at numerous times, including a ban or two from forums for sticking up to the naysayers.

I firmly believe we, as a community, need to squash the old standards passed down by our previous generations. Some apply, but just because it never happened before, doesn't mean we should exclude any consideration going forward. That mentality is clearly unprogressive, and we need all the progress we can muster to advance the hobby away from the scores of creatures that are openly terminated in so many ways, all the while it's only seen as 'unfortunate' and not 'preventable'.

/soapbox

 

[Alfrareef]

Dear Kung,
Please incorporated in your thoughts that some, if not almost all, of us are trying to keep and grow different species with different needs on a very small environment. Only that introduces several complexity degrees leading to different results thus different opinions and advises.
Just my 2cents...

 

[Russ265]

Sorry guys.
Was on business trip last week and havent had any down time til this morning.

I wasn't trying to lead anyone reading that AA doesnt do "anything" in a sense that the coral rejects AA. We know they use it for growth.
It is also a form of nitrogen they will photosynthesize if other forms are unavailable.

my point was that it does nothing meaningful to the aquarist. Maybe we can link lack of AA to rtn or stn but we cant measure it.
Also before and afters show nothing. You would figure after years of a product on the market, we would get more than "more cyano" to show for it.
Another thing to note: There are no signs of AA shortage in our tank naturally. It almost reminds me of potassium. Sure corals use it, but how little is too little before corals kick the bucket? We can at least measure that.

@Kungpaoshizi mentioned new methods for reefing.
Hey. im all for that. Prescribing carbon dosing for my tank would wipe the entire lot out. However, i do dose nitrate and phosphate regularly, which aligns to "newer" or should i say "advanced" methods of reefing.

At the end of the day... a tried and true method for almost anything that ails an aquarist is a water change. (unfortunately there is no 5ppm nitrate blend). why? because we have limited means to test our water short of the basics.

If your corals look angry after one of those, chances are nutrients are gone, or the mix is off.

Of course im speaking generally because this topic hasnt seemed to nail down a "specific" beyond blanket water params via AA concentrations they cant test for.

my .02
personally: you all know how i feel about bottled AA, so there is no need for sarcastic devil's advocate prodding.

 

[mcarroll]

Dissolved Organic Nitrogen Use by Phytoplankton: The Role of Cell-Surface Enzymes

Found this to be riveting.

To the extent that corals like phytoplankton, we might consider boosting phyto as another basis for adding AA's.

How phyto uses AA's to create ammonium as well as hydrogen peroxide right at the cell surface was amazing to learn. Just one fact that came up.

Great read (if you skip all the incomprehensible parts)!!

 

[bif24701]

I don't understand why some are dismissing scientific studies/peer reviewed papers for "this works for me!".

In trying to get a deeper understanding of the biology within my system.

If your methods are working for you, great. How does that in anyway discount sound scientific studies, or though processes?

 

[Russ265]

I don't understand why some are dismissing scientific studies/peer reviewed papers for "this works for me!".

In trying to get a deeper understanding of the biology within my system.

If your methods are working for you, great. How does that in anyway discount sound scientific studies, or though processes?

not every aquarist has access to their AA concentration/specification count.
in other words. its meaningless.

if you chuck x ounces of AA in your glass cauldron, how much percentage did you increase it by?

dirty tanks. maybe 5%. clean tanks by 100%?

not scientific at all.

 

[bif24701]

not every aquarist has access to their AA concentration/specification count.
in other words. its meaningless.

if you chuck x ounces of AA in your glass cauldron, how much percentage did you increase it by?

dirty tanks. maybe 5%. clean tanks by 100%?

not scientific at all.

I get what you are saying about some products.

However wasn't the start of this thread about creating an AA to add to the tank.

I think that we can and should invest into this as it has been shown through research to be viable.

 

[mcarroll]

I think everyone is right...how about that? ;)

I think most of the usage of amino acids is based on very little knowledge and mostly pure hype and the empty concept of "pop".

If "pop" is anything, it is the word we give to the gap between how corals actually look in reality and how any given reefer thinks they should look. Not useful. Certainly not measurable.

Further, as we've said, there's no way to measure AA's present in the water. (Not at home anyway.) So it's very hard or maybe impossible for us to say what's going on directly.

On the positive side, I haven't see a problem from AA dosing that wasn't clearly related to over-dosing/not starting small and observing the system.

From what I've read so far, it's extremely likely that AA's can be of some benefit to the system as a whole....from the phyto up to the corals.

Speaking Only For What I Do
This makes them worthy IMO of dosing at a very small rate like I do....about 5mL per week per 100 gallons....dripped daily.

That's not enough to register on a nitrate test kit even though it's being dosed with 10mL per day per 100 gallons of KNO3 solution.

Yet I'm still seeing fairly dramatic changes in the tank, even at zero levels in the water.

For example, I recently tapped out the tank's PO4 supply. It registered zero on my last test, so I'm going to feed a little more R.O.E. and NLS flakes. Pest algae has completely changed complexion and coraline is showing up in more places.

So I plan to keep dosing the combo of KNO3 and AA's in about the proportion that I am....but I have no intention of increasing the dose of AA's anytime soon....and I also plan to keep reading. :)

The only advice I give if someone wants to dose amino's is to start small and take it slow. I don't think I would recommend it for the purposes of raising Nitrate levels though. KNO3 is a better choice. (I'm not convinced AA's break down to nitrates with any directness, if so that would add to the tendency to overdose.)