Do commercially available bacteria supplements work?

[jda]

Fish and invert gut bacteria, the stuff that comes in on frags, snail/crab shells, etc. is going to be better than what you get in a bottle. You might even get some small worms, pods, starfish on a snail shell. Hard to replace the larger stuff that comes in rock, so keep trying or get a scoop of sand from a local reefer with an established tank - we used to give out sand to new folks like sourdough bread starts.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

Fish and invert gut bacteria, the stuff that comes in on frags, snail/crab shells, etc. is going to be better than what you get in a bottle. You might even get some small worms, pods, starfish on a snail shell. Hard to replace the larger stuff that comes in rock, so keep trying or get a scoop of sand from a local reefer with an established tank - we used to give out sand to new folks like sourdough bread starts.

I miss those days. I asked about getting some sand in a local group and no one replied, everyone just want euphyllia and zoa frags :( Different hobby these days.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I think that some of you are confusing terms. Nitrifying bacteria process ammonia and nitrite and eventually turn it into no3 - oxic or aerobic. Denitrifying bacteria turn no3 into N gas - anoxic or anaerobic.

Thank you - I just corrected my comment... I knew what I meant! Lol!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

You're missing the difference between nitrification and de- nitrification... What's commonly sold in bottles to help speed up a tank's ability to nitrify toxic ammonia has been found to be legitimate and effective (at least some brands).

Completing the nitrogen cycle is having bacteria in the system that can effectively convert nitrate back into nitrogen (aka de- nitrifiers); these are totally different from the denitrifiers and are not (as I understand it) commonly able to be "bottled".

Nitrifiers, AOB ,NOB, AOA , anammox, are autotrophs.! How much viable bacteria of these species one is able to put in a bottle ? Maybe frozen or dried or both?
if one puts alive nitrifiers in a closed bottle after a very short period of time the content of the bottle will be suitable to feed heterotrophic reducers .
After a long stay in a closed bottle, a week, a month, a year, viable bacteria are bacteria that form endospores, which are bacterial species of the genera Bacillus and Clostridium , not really the species necessary for nitrification. And of these species, only a fraction will be viable after being bottled as endospore. Bacteria that cause anthrax, botulism and tetanus are known spore formers. Known disease-causing spore formers do not occur in filters of seawater aquariums to my knowledge.

Found to be legitimate and effective? By who for who or for what?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

By work, I mean, are the bacteria viable and living, and are they useful species?

Brightwell has an entire line which does not require refrigeration - Microbackter7, Microbacter Clean, etc.

Dr. Tim famously has his line of start up and maintenance geared bacteria.

Ftitz is another one, which interestingly, seems to require the most care (most companies in Canada require overnight shipping when purchasing).

Keep it simple and have patience. Installing carrying capacity and conditioning a new setup to what is coming is much more as just introducing nitrifiers. It needs time and skills and can not be bought.

Add a live mussel, and one will have introduced all bacteria needed to start with. Maybe one can keep it alive. if you can, you are ready to add expensive life stock. Each species introduced will add its own holobiont and bacterial diversity.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I'm interested in the use of these "live" bacteria in terms of adding biodiversity to already cycled young tanks. My concern is reducing or eliminating new tank nuisance algae and bacteria. I've used MB7, AF Lifesource, and Live Rock Enhance powder but judgeing their effects is difficult. I'm considering trying Dr Tims Eco-Balance. Anyone have any thoughts/advice?

Please define "new tank" nuisance algae and bacteria.
If one wants to start a battle one should first now everything about the enemies to be able to make a good choice about the weapons to use.
Using the most appropriate weapon to defeat the enemy.! Then one must also have knowledge of the available weapons and how they work. And what exactly is in the bottle?

I have been taught never to use or add products of which the correct composition or and content is not known and that should be stated on the packaging. I am very concerned about my expensive livestock, life for which I am responsible.

Maybe such product contains a reef safe placebo? Maybe it is just some disolved organics to stimulate heterotrophic growth ? Who knows?

 

[taricha]

And what exactly is in the bottle?

Impressed at your years-long persistence with this. :rolleyes:

You should get your hands on a bottle of Biospira. Seriously.
Have two containers of new saltwater with1-2ppm ammonia - add a recommended dose of biospira to one of them. Aerate each. Measure ammonia, NO2, then NO3 (when NO2 clears in ~10 days or so).
You'll find that even without any carbon source, the bottled bacteria (families are printed right on the label) converts ammonia to NO2 beginning overnight - with a near 1:1 nitrogen balance between initial ammonia drop and NO2 production. Then with a few day lag behind the ammonia oxidation, NO2 will also be oxidized away to NO3.
Measuring the increase in NO3 (I have) - you'll find that the ammonia to NO3 conversion is again - nearly 1:1. This is not the behavior of heterotrophs but traditional chemoautotroph nitrifiers.

With this data in hand - then you can tell us what you actually think is in the bottle, rather than asserting in post after post for years that it's impossible.

 

[jda]

1/2 ounce of skim mate from some other persons tank would likely do the same thing... if you have a friend, local club, or whatever... get a cup of sand from them and a bit of skim mate.

 

[Aeiyr]

Impressed at your years-long persistence with this. :rolleyes:

You should get your hands on a bottle of Biospira. Seriously.
Have two containers of new saltwater with1-2ppm ammonia - add a recommended dose of biospira to one of them. Aerate each. Measure ammonia, NO2, then NO3 (when NO2 clears in ~10 days or so).
You'll find that even without any carbon source, the bottled bacteria (families are printed right on the label) converts ammonia to NO2 beginning overnight - with a near 1:1 nitrogen balance between initial ammonia drop and NO2 production. Then with a few day lag behind the ammonia oxidation, NO2 will also be oxidized away to NO3.
Measuring the increase in NO3 (I have) - you'll find that the ammonia to NO3 conversion is again - nearly 1:1. This is not the behavior of heterotrophs but traditional chemoautotroph nitrifiers.

With this data in hand - then you can tell us what you actually think is in the bottle, rather than asserting in post after post for years

I could try for a year and I wouldn't be able to say it any better than this.

 

[Azedenkae]

You'll find that even without any carbon source, the bottled bacteria (families are printed right on the label) converts ammonia to NO2 beginning overnight - with a near 1:1 nitrogen balance between initial ammonia drop and NO2 production. Then with a few day lag behind the ammonia oxidation, NO2 will also be oxidized away to NO3.
Measuring the increase in NO3 (I have) - you'll find that the ammonia to NO3 conversion is again - nearly 1:1. This is not the behavior of heterotrophs but traditional chemoautotroph nitrifiers.

Just to clarify, ppm-wise it'll be 1 ppm ammonia to 2.7ish ppm nitrite, and 1 ppm nitrite to 1.348ish ppm nitrate. But yes, molecule-wise, 1:1.

not really the species necessary for nitrification.

Scientists have actually studied nitrifiers' resilience to starvation conditions, and found that yes, they can survive very long periods starved of their sole energy source: https://academic.oup.com/femsec/article/58/1/1/468326. That's just one article. Plenty on the subject. So there's not really any surprise that nitrifiers can easily survive in a bottle until conditions are right.

 

[taricha]

1/2 ounce of skim mate from some other persons tank would likely do the same thing... if you have a friend, local club, or whatever... get a cup of sand from them and a bit of skim mate.

True.
even the classic nitrifiers which people do not think are in the water are unavoidably transferred in tiny amounts with water. I've found repeatedly, that if I have a sterilized saltwater sample with ammonia and I add a drop of my tank water to it, I'll get ammonia->NO2->NO3 in 20-30 days. Somebody else's might be less than 4 weeks, some more. but yeah. even the desirable surface bacteria exist in some numbers in aquarium water.
But a bottle of Fritz or Biospira will start making NO2 overnight. One and only a couple of days later. So mostly it's a matter of degree. Do I have that same functional group in my water? yep and in 3-4 weeks they'll multiply enough to handle a tank load.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

To compare one can use NH3-N, NH4-N, NO2-N; NO3-N. But most test kits measure in ppm. if 1 ppm TAN ( mainly NH4 is what is present in seawater if NH3 is added) is reduced and 1 ppm NO3 is the result, most ammonia is NOT transformed into NO3; If all ammonia is reduced when having a 1:1 ratio ppm NO3 it was not due to nitrification!!!!,

1-2ppm ammonia is a toxic level for NOB . This means most ammonia- nitrogen first must be removed mainly by growth to lower the ammonia level to avoid toxic nitrite build up. AOB and AOA grow slowly. Adding dissolved organics very low in nitrogen, having a very high C/N ratio, will provide the building-materials for very fast heterotrophic growth and fast removal of free NH4-N. No nitrifiers needed, so far.

What is in the bottle? What should be in the bottle?

Some nitrifiers may survive a period of time without feed but all are slow growers compared to heterotrophs when food becomes available.. Adding nitrifiers using fresh live cultures will not accelerate ammonia reduction in such a way, they need building-materials made available by other bacteria to be able to grow, they use ammonia and basic materials not used for heterotrophic growth, when availability of DOC becomes limited . Effective nitrification mainly takes place in balanced biofilms needing all types of bacteria which do need a lot of time to develop ( at least 3 -5 weeks) One must take into account the short natural lifespan and the need for constant remineralization of the organics in order to continue growing. Heterotrophs have to produce 40 x more biomass compared to nitrifiers to reduce the same amount of ammonia ( Ebling 2006), biomass which must be removed or recycled and reused to avoid ammonia build up, the main purpose of biofilters. Produced Nitrate is safely stored and usable nitrogen and is an important end-product of mineralization.

Nitrification comes for free, cycling and conditioning a tank needs time and one should install a balance between all bacteria and with respect for the 3 pillars supporting the carrying capacity , basic aquarium management.

 

[TWYOUNG]

Please define "new tank" nuisance algae and bacteria.
If one wants to start a battle one should first now everything about the enemies to be able to make a good choice about the weapons to use.
Using the most appropriate weapon to defeat the enemy.! Then one must also have knowledge of the available weapons and how they work. And what exactly is in the bottle?

I have been taught never to use or add products of which the correct composition or and content is not known and that should be stated on the packaging. I am very concerned about my expensive livestock, life for which I am responsible.

Maybe such product contains a reef safe placebo? Maybe it is just some disolved organics to stimulate heterotrophic growth ? Who knows?

When fighting prorocentrum dinoflagellates I was encouraged to use MB7 as part of the treatment regimen. GHA and what I believe to be chrysophytes have also been an issue despite low nutrient levels. I also experienced a second round of dinoflagellates in the form of SCA but things have improved currently.

 

[taricha]

To compare one can use NH3-N, NH4-N, NO2-N; NO3-N.

This is what I'm saying does in fact happen with biospira (etc). TAN is processed by biospira and ends up almost entirely as NO3-N, near 1:1 when counting nitrogen or over 3:1 NO3 made/NH4 consumed.
This is pretty widely observed, when doing a fishless cycle from a bottle of nitrifiers. If 5ppm ammonia was added during the cycling process, then the final NO3 (after all NO2 is cleared) is often way higher than 5ppm.
If it's done in the dark without much organic carbon food or much algae, then it can be in the ballpark of the theoretical 3.4:1 ratio of NO3/NH4

 

[Azedenkae]

Some nitrifiers may survive a period of time without feed but all are slow growers compared to heterotrophs when food becomes available.. Adding nitrifiers using fresh live cultures will not accelerate ammonia reduction in such a way, they need building-materials made available by other bacteria to be able to grow, they use ammonia and basic materials not used for heterotrophic growth, when availability of DOC becomes limited . Effective nitrification mainly takes place in balanced biofilms needing all types of bacteria which do need a lot of time to develop ( at least 3 -5 weeks).

They are autotrophic, strictly so in fact - or at least the ones studied are known to be. They don't rely on organic substrates as a carbon source. Yes, they still need sources of other elements for growth, but they are not entirely dependent on other microorganisms for said resources. Hence why they could form pure cultures, rather than have to be co-cultured.

The question of course is how readily can they just utilize what is readily available in the environment... and the answer seems to be, very readily.

There has been cases where freshwater nitrifiers grown in RO water could not reproduce, but simply using tap water or remineralized RO water was enough for them to grow. I personally have started with just remineralized RO water and got nitrifiers to grow, so this is speaking from personal experience. Evidence? Only ammonium chloride was supplied along with the remineralized RO water. Water was not sterilized before dosing FritzZyme TurboStart 700, but yeah, no organic substrates (like fish food) were included. Container was left in the dark. This is to ensure that there would be minimal organic substrates already present in the water for heterotrophs to consume, and that ammonia was not being consumed by photoautotrophs. Of course, it can't limit the growth of other lithotrophs. Nonetheless, nitrification was evident, and at increasing rates for a while until presumably there were no more resources for growth, and only ammonium chloride supplied available as an energy source.

 

[Laith]

I would be wary of anything that you have to keep on adding. If they actually worked and had beneficial things for our tanks, then if you add once, then you have them and they will grow to equilibrium with the environment.

This is a very valid point and has always puzzled me. I can't really see a reason for a bacteria to stop multiplying and disappear if they actually have the nutrition they need. It's not as if a colony of bacteria have a life cycle as a whole.

I am one of those that do dose bacteria and food for them (BioDigest and Bioptiom) every two weeks and have been doing so since a while. But I keep wondering whether I'm just a fool and wasting money. On the other hand, the tank is doing great so I hesitate to change something that I've been adding for so long for fear of upsetting some sort of equilibrium that bi-weekly addition of these products create.

I'm not talking about a tank start up bacteria to shorten cycles, those sort of make logical sense.

But if the bacteria are beneficial and are finding the conditions they need to find that equilibrium with the environment, then why keep adding more?

And here I am, continuously adding the stuff (and it's not cheap on a 1,900 liter tank) for:

1. thinking that they are helping the biodiversity of the tank and that's why the tank is doing so well.

2. Fear of upsetting any type of equilibrium (whether necessary or not) in the tanks since I've been using it for so long.

So, maybe I'm a fool... :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes: Haven't make up my mind yet!

 

[twentyleagues]

i have used mb7 for years on my fresh water tanks, mostly for start up. Scape it put fish in put mb7 in done. I have never registered any ammonia or nitrite doing this. I do typically use the recommended dosing instructions which is to add x amount /gallon for the first dose then follow up with a daily dose for a week. Usually depending on tank size I have left over and will dose that weekly as a just in case but at that point the "cycle" is complete. I do notice if I use it as a suggested "clean up" it does help to rid the tank of certain algaes and detritus making removal easier. While working at an lfs I learned about its use and we used it on fish only systems that where completely emptied and restarted with new salt water and fish like qts or even floor tanks, again no "cycle" issues. The bottles do state whats in it but not quantity of them.

 

[brandon429]

Surface area is rarely talked about in reefing and it factors in bacterial regulation, it’s not just about nutrients as competition

though we’ve discussed prior how rafting is one of multiple delivery modes for filtration bacteria through water, filter bacteria are found in tank water, the primary locus of attachment is substrate for our ammonia oxidizing bacteria and that’s finite real estate

some strains win out over others for the vital space


what selects over time are benthic bacteria not pelagic ones in most reef tanks (skimming out as attached to scums and films and rafts in the water + common water changes plus UV in some cases, all exports we use don’t harm benthic bacteria)

before rock aging is advanced it’s already been tested in Dr Reefs bottle bac thread that dosed bacteria adhere to surfaces in a known and predictable timeframe if the bottle isn’t a dead mix

those same species can easily be edged out for vital space selection as better-fitting species ride in on corals and fish and cross contaminated water droplets

 

[Garf]

What?

Surface area is rarely talked about in reefing

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

What?

My thoughts exactly!