Do fish have immunity?

[mindme]

Review

Fish Shellfish Immunol

. 2006 Feb;20(2):126-36.
doi: 10.1016/j.fsi.2004.09.005.

Ontogeny of the immune system of fish​

A Zapata 1, B Diez, T Cejalvo, C Gutiérrez-de Frías, A Cortés
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 15939627
• DOI: 10.1016/j.fsi.2004.09.005

Erythrocytes and macrophages are the first blood cells to be identified in zebrafish embryos. They occur in the ICM, the duct of Cuvier and the peripheral circulation. Between 24 and 30 hour post-fertilization (hpf) at a temperature of 28 degrees C a few myeloblasts and myelocytes appear between the yolk sac and the body walls, and the ventral region of the tail of 1-2 day-old zebrafish also contains developing blood cells. The thymus, kidney and spleen are the major lymphoid organs of teleosts. The thymus is the first organ to become lymphoid, although earlier the kidney can contain hematopoietic precursors but not lymphocytes.

I am now done and will no longer answer to any of your silly questions or disprove or prove anything. Almost all my fish are older than your entire Noob tank. Immune, charlatans or not.

Have a nice day

Again you are just posting random studies that do not actually back up your claims.

And once again, I do not care if you address me or not, I will get to debunk what you claim either way.

I think your tank looks like crap and would tear it down if you really want to talk about other peoples fish tanks. I would be embarassed to post my tank if it looked anything like yours.

And I doubt the age of your fish, considering I see you constantly adding more fish to your tank, but then your pictures never seem to have more than 3 or 4 fish in them, and those were babies.

 

[atoll]

At this point, you're just looking for things to throw at me really. I'm not sure what part of 10 years without doing a QT you didn't understand and that I was in the process of learning how to QT for the first time.

I'll probably make more noob mistakes tomorrow as well. This hobby has changed so much in the past 12 years that there are very few things that are done the same way.

My tank from 6 months ago. It's crazy how much the coral have grown since this pic, I need to take some fresh ones. But here you go.

Left side of my tank:

Right side of my tank:

Some of my favorite shots:

Looking forward to seeing how you try to attack my credibility next.

What credibly is that then? You lost most of it a while back. You started throwing your toys out the pram suggesting I need help. If you cant debate without getting insulting which you have throughout this thread then look elsewhere. Had enough of you now with your dictatorial ways. I can no longer believe anything you say so will leave you to it. Have a nice day.

 

[GARRIGA]

Why I rather not use copper and instead filter out the free swimmer thereby reducing their impact and allowing the fish become immune by getting infected. Feel the same about antibacterial soaps although hard to avoid those these days. Sometimes playing in mud helps. speaking from decades of raising boas and having to learn more about diseases than I cared to ever know.

 

[ReefGeezer]

This entire thread is supposed to be about fish immunity. The title is literally "Do fish have immunity".

It's not my fault some people are making false claims about immunity and are confusing it with healthy fish being able to live with it.

It it ok to disagree but you have to learn how to discuss disagreements without personal attacks. It only takes one to ruin a thread that has the potential to yield good information from experiencedrefers.

 

[mindme]

It it ok to disagree but you have to learn how to discuss disagreements without personal attacks. It only takes one to ruin a thread that has the potential to yield good information from experiencedrefers.

lol

You guys seem to think you are in Pauls thread. You are not. I've never posted in it, I likely never will.

This is a discussion about fish immunity.

 

[mindme]

What credibly is that then? You lost most of it a while back. You started throwing your toys out the pram suggesting I need help. If you cant debate without getting insulting which you have throughout this thread then look elsewhere. Had enough of you now with your dictatorial ways. I can no longer believe anything you say so will leave you to it. Have a nice day.

Yeah, I said you need help because you keep trying to harp on about my mistakes, when I specifically posted the mistakes to be honest about the topic and the hardships of QT.

You didn't care about anything other than using what I said as a way to attack me. In fact, when was the last post you made that wasn't an attack towards me?

 

[mindme]

Why I rather not use copper and instead filter out the free swimmer thereby reducing their impact and allowing the fish become immune by getting infected. Feel the same about antibacterial soaps although hard to avoid those these days. Sometimes playing in mud helps. speaking from decades of raising boas and having to learn more about diseases than I cared to ever know.

I do agree with you towards playing in the mud and such being something that improves immune systems. I personally rarely get sick and I grab carts are the grocery store as they are, don't give a crap, etc. I see people wiping the handles down and I just kind of shake my head. I 100% believe that constant exposure to bacterias and such, especially the weaker ones that make up 99.9% of them helps develop immune systems and that people who go crazy with cleaning and disinfecting are doing more harm than good. I don't find it a coincidence that those same people are often times the one who get the sickest and seem to be sick most often.

Not to mention all the bacteria and such in our bodies which are required for us to live. We'd literally die if we killed all the "germs" in our bodies.

100% with you on all that.

Here's the issue however. Not all things can be cured by our immune systems. Parasites in particular are something our immune systems can't really deal with well. Malaria for example, you have no choice but to treat it with medication. Healthy people can often times have it and still live with it, even the symptoms fading over time(symptoms are mostly created by our bodies, not the parasite). Malaria will still take a toll on their overall health over time, and the moment they become weakened, the Malaria will likely kill them.

And it's the same thing in our fish tanks. While most of the things our fish face are likely never an issue because our fish's immune systems are easily able to handle it, there are a few things out there which require medication, otherwise the only way the fish survive is just like malaria, they are merely healthy enough to live with the parasites. It's foolish to pretend that living with the parasites doesn't take it's toll on our fish, and it's foolish to believe that the parasites won't kill a fish quicker the moment a fish's health and/or immune system drops.

 

[atoll]

As people can see immunity is a hot topic lol. Seems there are 2 camps those that believe in it and those that don't. Those that don't mainly believe in medicating and or QT but not all while others believe it's a game of Russian roulette introducing fish neither medicated and or QTd.

Those of us who believe in fish having some sort of immunity do so through our experiences over many years, have written why we believe such and illustrated it with photos and videos. You either believe them or you don't.

Fish health is at the front of it. Fish can be healthy when we purchase them but never 100% due to collection, travel storage lack of feeding etc. We have heard time and time again stress is a major factor in our fish health. Never underestimate it and what it does health wise.

Fish in not the best of condition and I suspect most aren't even if they look to be can be brought into good health with the right conditions and foods. Those we believe build up the immunity for many of the diseases and parasites many suffer with in their tanks.

Weak fish are susceptible to many common ailments while strong healthy fish build up resistance and immunity to them. That is the basis of our claims to fish immunity.

 

[Jeffcb]

Yes they have and can build immunity. Why wouldn't they?

All living creatures do.

 

[mindme]

Yes they have and can build immunity. Why wouldn't they?

All living creatures do.

The question was specific to ich and velvet. Which they do not.

Just like humans do not have immunity to parasites like malaria.

 

[mindme]

As people can see immunity is a hot topic lol. Seems there are 2 camps those that believe in it and those that don't. Those that don't mainly believe in medicating and or QT but not all while others believe it's a game of Russian roulette introducing fish neither medicated and or QTd.

Those of us who believe in fish having some sort of immunity do so through our experiences over many years, have written why we believe such and illustrated it with photos and videos. You either believe them or you don't.

Fish health is at the front of it. Fish can be healthy when we purchase them but never 100% due to collection, travel storage lack of feeding etc. We have heard time and time again stress is a major factor in our fish health. Never underestimate it and what it does health wise.

Fish in not the best of condition and I suspect most aren't even if they look to be can be brought into good health with the right conditions and foods. Those we believe build up the immunity for many of the diseases and parasites many suffer with in their tanks.

Weak fish are susceptible to many common ailments while strong healthy fish build up resistance and immunity to them. That is the basis of our claims to fish immunity.

The topic is if fish have immunity to parasites like ich and velvet.

Living with the parasites is not the same thing as immunity to them.

 

[atoll]

Off topic I know but hey oh.
Quote.
"ABSTRACT
Naturally acquired immunity to falciparum malaria protects millions of people routinely exposed to Plasmodium falciparum infection from severe disease and death. There is no clear concept about how this protection works. There is no general agreement about the rate of onset of acquired immunity or what constitutes the key determinants of protection; much less is there a consensus regarding the mechanism(s) of protection. This review summarizes what is understood about naturally acquired and experimentally induced immunity against malaria with the help of evolving insights provided by biotechnology and places these insights in the context of historical, clinical, and epidemiological observations. We advocate that naturally acquired immunity should be appreciated as being virtually 100% effective against severe disease and death among heavily exposed adults. Even the immunity that occurs in exposed infants may exceed 90% effectiveness."

 

[HuduVudu]

@Paul B I think it is the damaged slime coat that causes uronema. The protoza responsible for it is benign and ubiquitous in the water column. It normal is a part of clean up and breaks down waste in the sand. It is telling that it is the end for an operation if it gets into their systems. It's funny ... get's in, it's already in.

Jay's experience with it is telling.

 

[HuduVudu]

Why I rather not use copper and instead filter out the free swimmer thereby reducing their impact and allowing the fish become immune by getting infected. Feel the same about antibacterial soaps although hard to avoid those these days. Sometimes playing in mud helps. speaking from decades of raising boas and having to learn more about diseases than I cared to ever know.

I went down the UV route, I also have seen almost every retail operation use it and it doesn't seem to put a dent in the loss.

I have yet to seen UV work on something. Take it for what it is worth.

 

[HuduVudu]

The coral will see you now! How dolfphins use coral as medicine.

@Jay Hemdal Thought everybody might like to see this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10836477/Dolphins-form-orderly-queues-use-coral-medicine-skin-ailments-study-reveals.html

www.reef2reef.com

Cross post for relevance.

 

[HuduVudu]

Yes they have and can build immunity. Why wouldn't they?

All living creatures do.

Seems this is non-obvious.

 

[Jeffcb]

The question was specific to ich and velvet. Which they do not.

Just like humans do not have immunity to parasites like malaria.

My fish have built immunity to such parasites. I give them lots of garlic!

I also have a chicken egg near the sump!

 

[HuduVudu]

I have to say that NSA has to be THE absolute worst idea on the planet. Looks great for the humans but is absolutely terribad for the fish.

My Pakastani got caught because he is an idiot and likes to sleep out in the open at night. He's lucky he wasn't dinner for a bigger fish. When I got him he had some sort of fluke and was very pale and stressed. I assumed hew was a new fish and that this was normal. After a month this didn't go away and the fluke continued on. I was frustrated because I couldn't figure out why he still had the parasite and his colors weren't darkening up. He still paced. Then one night I was tired and I was up getting water. For some reason the neighbors security light had tripped and I realized how much light pollution was in the room. I walked over to the tank and sure enough Mr. Brainlet was out in the open freaked out and breathing hard. ::Face Palm:: From that point on I had to carefully put a sheet over the tank to ensure darkness. In two weeks he who shall not be named got rid of his fluke and his colors darkened up and he stopped pacing. I even wrote a post about it. Hilariously on that post I was called an idiot and a liar.

No one said fish were smart (maybe cute).

 

[Paul B]

Hudu, I think you are right about the slime coat. That is one reason I am against quarantine and medications, especially copper. Copper causes the fish to exude copious amounts of slime but I am not sure if that slime has more or less antibodies in it and I doubt anyone else knows either.

I do know stress lessens the availability of those antibodies and antiparasitic substances.

I know in people stress which releases cortisol our immune system is compromised as that was the gist of the last class I took and something I didn't know or at least didn't understand the function. Now I do.

But I feel it is our job to keep the fish as stress free as possible as that is the only way to get fish to live to their entire presumed lifespan.

 

[HuduVudu]

Hudu, I think you are right about the slime coat. That is one reason I am against quarantine and medications, especially copper. Copper causes the fish to exude copious amounts of slime but I am not sure if that slime has more or less antibodies in it and I doubt anyone else knows either.

I do know stress lessens the availability of those antibodies and antiparasitic substances.

I know in people stress which releases cortisol our immune system is compromised as that was the gist of the last class I took and something I didn't know or at least didn't understand the function. Now I do.

But I feel it is our job to keep the fish as stress free as possible as that is the only way to get fish to live to their entire presumed lifespan.

That is an interesting point.

If the fish is "pointlessly" exuding slime to constantly deal with the environmental toxin (copper) over the length of it's stay in the supply chain, at some point with a food deficit the fish isn't going to have the resources neccessary to produce anymore. At that point they lose their slime coat immunity, and they are open to literally everything.

Hmmmmm ...