Do what I say not what I do...

ScottF

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I got back into the hobby about six months age. I had a reef tank from around 2008 to 2014, but back then I had to rely on reef central and the advise of my LFSs. Now I have watched hundreds of hours of youtube and I've asked a bunch of questions on these forums.

Recently I watched video from Melev's reef where he had coral colonies crashing because he was lacking in trace elements. Prior to that I know I've heard him say, "I guarantee that the solution to your problem isn't going to be found in a bottle". Now he is saying he is doing the Moonshiners method, but according to him this is definately not for beginners.

Why is it not for beginners? You have corals dying because you are not supplying them with needed elements, but people that haven't been reefing for 20 years shouldn't supply them with needed elements because they can't so something that you are doing for the first time? Your vast experience in reefing qualifies you to read a graduated cylinder more accurately than someone just starting out?

I also just watched a video where the guy that made the most popular video on anemone tanks just said all of his anemones died every time he bought one. I'm not sure how relevant that is to this topic , but it was dose of the reality of marketing in this industry.

My point is that people should be giving good advice. Tell people what workks based on your experiences. Not what you think the stupidest person in the world will can handle. Don't just parrot something that you heard someone else say without knowing that it works because you want to be helpful. I admire your desire to help, but in my opion this is one of the biggest contributers of bad advice.

Now I preface
 

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You want to know what works? Constant water changes. And that is the problem, many if these guys are changing water monthly what they should be doing weekly, so yeah, they have to supplement and have too many bottles. I had in the past a acro tank with a calcium reactor, no water changes and it worked, because I was putting it back with the reactor. Big tanks calcium reactor or doser, really small tanks water changes. This is what I would say is easy. This is for SPS ofc, LPS and softies this really doesn't matter that much.
 

Sisterlimonpot

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Well, when it comes to pushing the envelope, what people are finding out is that not all tanks will respond positively.

Dosing trace elements aren't really beneficial to new tanks and aren't really required. But if you do, you will get better results if your tank is well established.

Following people on line is usually a recipe for disaster. You're better off taking them for what they are, entertainment that you might be able to gleam information from but definitely not a blue print to follow.
 
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ScottF

ScottF

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You want to know what works? Constant water changes. And that is the problem, many if these guys are changing water monthly what they should be doing weekly, so yeah, they have to supplement and have too many bottles. I had in the past a acro tank with a calcium reactor, no water changes and it worked, because I was putting it back with the reactor. Big tanks calcium reactor or doser, really small tanks water changes. This is what I would say is easy. This is for SPS ofc, LPS and softies this really doesn't matter that much.

My cat stomped across my keyboard mid-post and submitted it before I was ready, but...

Constant water changes are one way to replenish elements, but it's not a perfect way. I have autowater changes doing five gallons per day using Neptune dos pumps on my 250 gallon tank along with All for Reef dosing. I have depleted elements in my tank and I am in the process of switching to the Captiv8 method of replenishing elements.

My point is people are giving bad advice because they assume other people are stupid. If you are Melev and your corals are dying because you are lacking in trace elements, you should be telling people that they need to dose trace elements. Not that you should be doing water changes until your corals start dying and then you should start dosing trace elements.

Spend 10 years doing something wrong and then once you have the experience, start doing it right.

I get that experience lets you visibly know when corals are happy based on the way they look, but don't preach bad methods.
 

billyocean

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You can make reefing as complicated as you like or as simple as you wish. I've had success doing water changes every week or two, adding kz 1234 trace once a week, and now moonshiners. The 125 has been running about 4 years and a skimmer was only added about 6 months ago. Before that... just socks and rocks. This is all in a heavily stocked acro tank. Point is..beginner to expert...simple or high tech..consistency in the routine/maintenance will take someone a long way. Observing the coral and developing an eye for what's working comes with time. Knowing what advice to take and who to take it from is a road everyone has to navigate.
 
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ScottF

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You can make reefing as complicated as you like or as simple as you wish. I've had success doing water changes every week or two, adding kz 1234 trace once a week, and now moonshiners. The 125 has been running about 4 years and a skimmer was only added about 6 months ago. Before that... just socks and rocks. This is all in a heavily stocked acro tank. Point is..beginner to expert...simple or high tech..consistency in the routine/maintenance will take someone a long way. Observing the coral and developing an eye for what's working comes with time. Knowing what advice to take and who to take it from is a road everyone has to navigate.

Billy Ocean,

My mom was a big fan of your music. but when people say you can make it as complicated as you like doesn't mean much to me or the corals frankly. Corals will grow or even just live based on their environment. If you provide what they need to thrive then I guess that is complicate?

I get that people will tend to make things "complicated" to solve individual problems, but in general complicated solutions wouldn't exist unless people needed them to solve problems. Either that or BRS would need them to make money.

The scientific method is what it is. If you are getting by on water changes then that is great. If you have a super mature tank and you wish your coral wouldn't grow as much as they do then fine.

Saying you can make it as complicated as you want is crap. You can stick to the cheapest and most basic methods and your corals will probably live. Probably. You can supply what they need and reap the benefits.
 

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I have been taking setting up and taking care of reef tanks for others for about 30 years. I feel fairly confident in my understanding and ability to apply my understanding to keeping a reef tank healthy and growing.

But I am very reluctant to give advice on here, because what I can get away with might crash a typical hobbyist’s tank.

Not to mention, there are plenty of people on this forum who are way better at reef tanks than I am, and way better at giving advice than I am, so I let them handle that stuff.
 

billyocean

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Billy Ocean,

My mom was a big fan of your music. but when people say you can make it as complicated as you like doesn't mean much to me or the corals frankly. Corals will grow or even just live based on their environment. If you provide what they need to thrive then I guess that is complicate?

I get that people will tend to make things "complicated" to solve individual problems, but in general complicated solutions wouldn't exist unless people needed them to solve problems. Either that or BRS would need them to make money.

The scientific method is what it is. If you are getting by on water changes then that is great. If you have a super mature tank and you wish your coral wouldn't grow as much as they do then fine.

Saying you can make it as complicated as you want is crap. You can stick to the cheapest and most basic methods and your corals will probably live. Probably. You can supply what they need and reap the benefits.
The point was "you" was meant as a generalization of whoever. Complicated meaning all the automated things one could want to employ. Hey..maybe someone is out of town a lot and they need to have as much automated i.e. "complicated" equipment as they need to or want. For some reason you're reading what I wrote as a disagreement of your original post when in fact it's the same point. Hence...i stated I've had success with water changes, socks and rocks. When that wouldn't cover my bases...i added kz1234 for trace elements that weren't being replenished with only waterchanges. Now..to dial things in more specifically I've moved to moonshiners...captiv8 would be a fine choice as well. Hope this makes things more clear and transparent.
 
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ScottF

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I have been taking setting up and taking care of reef tanks for others for about 30 years. I feel fairly confident in my understanding and ability to apply my understanding to keeping a reef tank healthy and growing.

But I am very reluctant to give advice on here, because what I can get away with might crash a typical hobbyist’s tank.

Not to mention, there are plenty of people on this forum who are way better at reef tanks than I am, and way better at giving advice than I am, so I let them handle that stuff.

I think this is my favorite responses that I have seen one these forums. Some one with 30 yeas of experience that does want to respond because he isn't doesn't want to give bad advcide.
The point was "you" was meant as a generalization of whoever. Complicated meaning all the automated things one could want to employ. Hey..maybe someone is out of town a lot and they need to have as much automated i.e. "complicated" equipment as they need to or want. For some reason you're reading what I wrote as a disagreement of your original post when in fact it's the same point. Hence...i stated I've had success with water changes, socks and rocks. When that wouldn't cover my bases...i added kz1234 for trace elements that weren't being replenished with only waterchanges. Now..to dial things in more specifically I've moved to moonshiners...captiv8 woul11d be a fine choice as well. Hope this makes things more clear and transparent.
 

Reefer Matt

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I don’t test for or dose trace elements myself, and do large water changes when required. I suspect Marc switched to Moonshiners to save time and money on water changes for his 400 gallon reef. You may be watching videos from two different points in his reefing journey and he may have not mentioned that he is trying something new. It has nothing to do with thinking people are stupid, imo. And the truth is that not everything that works for us will work for others. Sometimes you gotta find your own way, and make your own journey.
 
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ScottF

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I don’t test for or dose trace elements myself, and do large water changes when required. I suspect Marc switched to Moonshiners to save time and money on water changes for his 400 gallon reef. You may be watching videos from two different points in his reefing journey and he may have not mentioned that he is trying something new. It has nothing to do with thinking people are stupid, imo. And the truth is that not everything that works for us will work for others. Sometimes you gotta find your own way, and make your own journey.

He specifically had corals dying because he was missing trace elements and he started doing moonshiners. Please don't spread bad information based on speculation. This is the whole point of this thread.
 

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He specifically had corals dying because he was missing trace elements and he started doing moonshiners. Please don't spread bad information based on speculation. This is the whole point of this thread.
I’m offering an opinion, which is part of being on a forum.
 
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ScottF

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He specifically had corals dying because he was missing trace elements and he started doing moonshiners. Please don't spread bad information based on speculation. This is the whole point of this thread.
And he specifically ddsif
I’m offering an opinion, which is part of being on a forum. If you don’t like the advice that is given, you are certainly welcome to dispute it. But you are not welcome to try and quiet others.
It's not that I don't like your advice. Trust me when I say that I seriously take everyone's advice on these forums and apply what I think is reasonable. Trying to mimic the ocean in a 250 gallon rectangle is hard. I'm just telling you what I saw on youtube. Which was advice
 
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ScottF

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Sorry.. my cat s
And he specifically ddsif

It's not that I don't like your advice. Trust me when I say that I seriously take everyone's advice on these forums and apply what I think is reasonable. Trying to mimic the ocean in a 250 gallon rectangle is hard. I'm just telling you what I saw on youtube. Which was advice
 
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ScottF

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lol.. sorry my cat just walked across my keyboard again. My point to all of this is that you can probably keep corals alive with water changes. You can probably have better success based on testing and dosing. You can randomly dose **** and have good success if you are lucky.

Just don't assume that every one is stupid and give bad advise because you think you think only you can put the right amount of milliliters of floride in a tank based on ICP-MS testing.

A person that is new to all of this would benefit from knowing that in 2025 we know that dosing trace elements is beneficial to SPS coral tanks . Do your best to find a method that works for you .
 

Sisterlimonpot

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I think the point is that, Marc's assumption that his issue was lack of trace elements is just that, an assumption. There are plenty of threads debating the merit of certain trace elements and if we're simply dosing them in order to mimic what's found in the ocean and nothing more.

@ ScottF

I do believe your name is familiar from the RC days. I will be the 1st to admit that the days of threads having discussions that eventually lead to a consensus is rarely the case these days.

It seems everyone has an agenda to be noticed or push certain products and if that means you have to create a narrative to get people to see you or believe you to sell you something, then be prepared to tilt your head and squint your eyes at everything.

Unfortunately the majority of what you read these days is derived from poorly passed on information and personal experience. That just means that everyone subscribes to their own way and concedes the notion that there are many ways to succeed in the hobby when rarely that's the case.
 
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ScottF

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Let them mess up
I think the point is that, Marc's assumption that his issue was lack of trace elements is just that, an assumption. .
The evidence is that once he started dosing traces it recovered. We all know that everything is an assumption when it comes to corals, but really this really doesn't speak to my main point.

Mark thought that the reason his coral was dying was because it was lacking a trace element, As a result he started dosing trace elements based on the moonshiners method. He stated that he didn't think beginners should use dose trace elements.

From this I now think that Mark's idea of how to maintain a successful reef tank is to dose trace elements, Whether that is then best way to do it isn't really relevant. It is what he is doing.

Why shouldn't beginners do what in Mark's mind is the right way to maintain a reef tank?
 

Sisterlimonpot

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Why shouldn't beginners do what in Mark's mind is the right way to maintain a reef tank?
I thought that was made clear earlier.

Dosing trace elements on a brand new tank is a waste of money. When there's very little uptake why start out purchasing bottles of trace just to only put a few drops in every week? It sounds like something he said was taken out of context and used to question his motive.

But to my point, just because Marc credits trace elements to be his champion, doesn't mean that he didn't do a whole host of other corrective actions along with trace dosing. Even if he swears up and down, trace elements are what corrected his issue, that's purely his opinion based on his experience.

Plus, Marc is renowned to be a credible guy, and as of lately most people like Marc have been accused of being a shill or selling out to companies and their products. He could be telling you not to go out and purchase the entire line of moonshiners trace elements in order to avoid being called a stooge. Who knows why he says that, but I wouldn't dissect it as him not practicing what he preaches.

I don't follow Marc on social media so I can't say one way or the other his intent.

He was a mentor for me when I 1st started way back in the RC days and I will always respect him for that.
 
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ScottF

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I thought that was made clear earlier.

Dosing trace elements on a brand new tank is a waste of money. When there's very little uptake why start out purchasing bottles of trace just to only put a few drops in every week? It sounds like something he said was taken out of context and used to question his motive.

But to my point, just because Marc credits trace elements to be his champion, doesn't mean that he didn't do a whole host of other corrective actions along with trace dosing. Even if he swears up and down, trace elements are what corrected his issue, that's purely his opinion based on his experience.

Plus, Marc is renowned to be a credible guy, and as of lately most people like Marc have been accused of being a shill or selling out to companies and their products. He could be telling you not to go out and purchase the entire line of moonshiners trace elements in order to avoid being called a stooge. Who knows why he says that, but I wouldn't dissect it as him not practicing what he preaches.

I don't follow Marc on social media so I can't say one way or the other his intent.

He was a mentor for me when I 1st started way back in the RC days and I will always respect him for that.

Again, This a case of do what I say and not what I do. You can spend $20 getting very small bottles of ten elements of super concentrated captiv8 Isol8. I spend more on fleece replacements of roller mats every month.

I also had a lot of people tell me on these forums to not pay attention to pH early on and one mister Randy Holmes Farley told me that I should keep my pH up to promote growth of corline algea,

If you have a tank of just water and rock. Sure... Whatever. Maybe don't spend money on ICP testing, I'm six months in to this tank and I just sent my first test in. My entire point is to give people the best possible chance of success.

Mark's tank is not new. He is doing ICP testing and trace element dosing, Should new reefers not think the solution to their problem is in a bottle? Maybe get your tank tested or wait until you have coral. Either way, eventually the solution to their problem may be in a bottle. It's better to get in the habit from the beginning.

Can you name any other hobby where it is best to start with bad habits and then switch it up when everything goes wrong?
 
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ScottF

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I've said it before, in my opinion the best time to learn is when you don't have thousands of dollars in livestock in your tank, work out all of your dosing as you add corals.
 

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