Does Po4 directly harm some corals?

[Murraydar]

I've read quite a few articles on Po4 and how it slows / halts calcification in stony corals. However, I was wondering if high phosphates can also direclty harm corals at high amounts, causing bleaching / polyp retraction / tissue necrosis / etc. I haven't seen much information on this.

Any studies or articles would be great, thanks!

 

[Flippers4pups]

There's some:





And:



Not sure about specific amounts of P04, but it's mostly in conjunction with pollution.

 

[Murraydar]

Thanks, ill watch those tonight!

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

There are plenty of reefers with relatively high po4 and no3. Most of the sps death threads involve the opposite, zero po4 and zero no3 or ultra low. Most of these are artificially drivin down using carbon dosing or gfo. I’ve watched a couple talks from a well known reefer that runs a public aquarium, can’t remeber his name, but he calls himself the lazy reefer. Anyway, he rarely checks po4 or no3 but when he has his nitrates have been near 100 and his po4 is 2.0 ppm, and his tank was pretty impressive.
So I guess what do you think is high? Wwc, top shelf aquatics, TCK, living reef Orlando and cherry corals all keep their sps systems no3 anywhere from 5-20 and their po4 0.05-0.10. These are relatively high numbers compared to what most sps keepers are chasing, often times killing them in the process.

 

[Murraydar]

My po4 is at around 0.8ppm right now. The corals are happy enough but their growth is super slow, almost non existant. Coralline doesn't seem to be growing much either. I've actually been purposely running with higher nutrients after some disastrous experiences with ultra low nutrients, but now I'd like to find a nice middleground.

Anyways, I started this thread because I have a montipora and stylocelennia that are unhappy and I was just checking to see if excessive po4 could be hurting them. It's my only parameter that's a bit out of the norm!

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Calcification has been shown to slow or stop when po4 is greater than 0.20 ppm

 

[SeaDweller]

There are plenty of reefers with relatively high po4 and no3. Most of the sps death threads involve the opposite, zero po4 and zero no3 or ultra low. Most of these are artificially drivin down using carbon dosing or gfo. I’ve watched a couple talks from a well known reefer that runs a public aquarium, can’t remeber his name, but he calls himself the lazy reefer. Anyway, he rarely checks po4 or no3 but when he has his nitrates have been near 100 and his po4 is 2.0 ppm, and his tank was pretty impressive.
So I guess what do you think is high? Wwc, top shelf aquatics, TCK, living reef Orlando and cherry corals all keep their sps systems no3 anywhere from 5-20 and their po4 0.05-0.10. These are relatively high numbers compared to what most sps keepers are chasing, often times killing them in the process.

I remember who you're talking about and his tank looks great! I think they adapted with time. His corals are like gold at this point.

Unfortunately my tank had those levels (recently, but not anymore) and some of my tester acros didn't do too well. I had a slimer turn a neon green then peel; same with a surf n turf stag, Oregon tort peeled after a week; things looked bad.

But as soon as they went into water with about 1/4 of the nutrients I had in my display, all necrosis stopped, browning persisted for a while; in normal-Ish waters, they are doing great. I think my PO4 in my current holding tank is reading 0.1-0.25 on salifert. So hard to tell with that test, but there's some definite growth and basing. Such a finicky genus we like to keep...

 

[Murraydar]

I saw the same video as well and was inspired by it to run higher nutrients. There's definitely tanks out there that grow crazy corals in these conditions but they definitely seem to be an exception to the rule.

It's also interesting how actual studies vary on their results. Some showed vastly reduced growth while others show the complete opposite.

 

[jda]

po4 is a poison at high levels. The level is different for every organism. Acropora won't be able to handle as much as mdntipora which won't be able to handle as much as most softies. However, a trace of po4 is needed for building blocks for all organic tissue.

Most of the differences in "studies" are easily explained by what they were studying. Most of the super-high po4 tanks did not get that way while having high po4 - they got the high po4 after much of their growth and development was done.

Generally speaking, I like to keep mine as low as possible without chasing them. For me, this is around 1-3 ppb, which is pretty low. They would have to get to .1 ppm before I would do much about them. Chasing is worse than high numbers, IMO, but low numbers when naturally obtained seem to do better. A lot of people blame po4 for their issues when it was the method of removal that was the issue.

 

[zack801]

There are plenty of reefers with relatively high po4 and no3. Most of the sps death threads involve the opposite, zero po4 and zero no3 or ultra low. Most of these are artificially drivin down using carbon dosing or gfo. I’ve watched a couple talks from a well known reefer that runs a public aquarium, can’t remeber his name, but he calls himself the lazy reefer. Anyway, he rarely checks po4 or no3 but when he has his nitrates have been near 100 and his po4 is 2.0 ppm, and his tank was pretty impressive.
So I guess what do you think is high? Wwc, top shelf aquatics, TCK, living reef Orlando and cherry corals all keep their sps systems no3 anywhere from 5-20 and their po4 0.05-0.10. These are relatively high numbers compared to what most sps keepers are chasing, often times killing them in the process.

I believe you’re talking about Richard Ross. Really great talks on YouTube about this exact thing. Here is the link it’s really entertaining and informative

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I believe you’re talking about Richard Ross. Really great talks on YouTube about this exact thing. Here is the link it’s really entertaining and informative

That’s him. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I believe you’re talking about Richard Ross. Really great talks on YouTube about this exact thing. Here is the link it’s really entertaining and informative

Awesome. I feel like I just met my long-lost brother.

A couple notable things he said that I liked:

- ‘Things with mouths like to eat, so feed them’

- ‘Nobody cared about PO4 until 2005 when a product came out that removed it’

The second thing is pretty true. Before GFO, PO4 was always known, and could be tested for, but there wasn’t a great way to lower it outside of water changes and hoping that GAC and skimming was taking ‘organic’ stuff out. Not to mention (IIRC), low-range PO4 testing was very new then. In years before that, below 1.0 was considered low. We couldn’t really know if we were at 0.08 or 0.8. What’s more, it didn’t really seem to matter a whole lot.

Great video. Thanks for posting.

 

[jda]

Some of that is not really true. We cared about po4 going back to the early 1990s. The test kits were not great for it, but it was a goal to keep them "clear" on a test kit... which could have been anywhere less than probably .15. What nearly never happened back then was people who chased and rushed to lower phosphates. They just skimmed heavy with good skimmers, did water changes and lots of folks grew macros.

 

[jda]

Being in the SPS forum, I would caution a lot of people to study the Ross tank really hard if you want be like him. His long-term results with SPS fluctuate and are probably not what some/most might have as a goal. The tank looks good from a distance to people who might not know what they are looking at, but it is not on the level of so many others. He has been an entertaining talk for years, but dig in...

JBs tank is probably a better case study for SPS folks.

 

[jda]

I also want to point out that people today really have no idea what heavy skimming really is. These current generation of needlewheels with bubble plates and cones are toys compared to the skimmers that we used back then. A good becket, downdraft or even a solid venturi will remove SO much more DOC than the needlewheel of today. I am overgeneralizing a bit because there are a few needlewheels that are really good, but as a whole, they are found lacking.

Also, dry rock loaded with phosphates was not a thing... we got phosphate free live rock from the ocean that was capable of acting as a buffer.

In some ways, it was easier back then to keep stuff low without chasing. It is certainly easier to chase numbers today.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I wasn’t suggesting Richard Ross’s approach to reefing is a method we should implement. I was trying to point out that there are tanks out there that are doing well with much higher po4 than what is typically recommended. I have read way more sps related death threads from reefers with ideal numbers using gfo and carbon dosing than I have of of those not using these methods with elevated no3 and po4.

But @jda is correct, we have no idea what RR’s specimens look like up close, and his “laziness” method has produced multiple crashes, which RR candidly discusses in the video. My point with all of this is that we tend to over react, freak out actually, when no3 and po4 have increased. I don’t believe po4 going from 0.05 to 0.10 is going to cause all the sps to die over night, so there’s no need to bring down the po4 down over night.

And btw the Hanna checker ultra low phosphorus is still a hobbyist grade tool and isn’t always 100% accurate, at least mine isn’t. I did my weekly po4 test on Sunday and it measured 33 which I thought was a little high compared the 10-15 that it usually reads. So I did a quick fish count to make sure one of my fish didn’t die and then I did another test and it measured 15.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Being in the SPS forum, I would caution a lot of people to study the Ross tank really hard if you want be like him. His long-term results with SPS fluctuate and are probably not what some/most might have as a goal. The tank looks good from a distance to people who might not know what they are looking at, but it is not on the level of so many others. He has been an entertaining talk for years, but dig in...

JBs tank is probably a better case study for SPS folks.

The truth and reality are probably firmly in the middle of what Ross does and the current trend in ULNS/carbon dosing/# chasing.

I skew toward a planned/managed negligence. It works for all types of coral, and it works long-term.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

The truth and reality are probably firmly in the middle of what Ross does and the current trend in ULNS/carbon dosing/# chasing.

I skew toward a planned/managed negligence. It works for all types of coral, and it works long-term.

Exactly.

 

[jda]

Probably. However, what I tend to caution people about are expecting an outlier to become reality in your home. RR is an outlier, which is easy to take out of context when people post "awesome reef with 2.0+ phosphates", but also really easy to understand if you dig in. The ULNS people are not outliers since there are so many, but you also have to dig in and understand what they are doing. The ULNS folks do not chase anything... they like lower numbers, but are happy to take their time to get there and diligently work EVERY DAY to stay there. Then, there is the nuance that gets missed... ULNS is not a problem... rushing or chasing to get there can be (and usually is).

I don't like the narrative that people can have success with any method that they choose.. this is just not true. Just because some person did, does not mean that you can. It is better for most to bet on the rule and not the exception. This is kind of like planning on winning the Power Ball to become a millionaire rather than spending less than you make, being smart and saving... which has worked for about 36 million millionaires.

I do not do much with my tank, but this is not laziness. It is a deliberate approach which relies on tried and true methods and equipment and nearly nothing that has not kicked butt for less than 5 years.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Probably. However, what I tend to caution people about are expecting an outlier to become reality in your home. RR is an outlier, which is easy to take out of context when people post "awesome reef with 2.0+ phosphates", but also really easy to understand if you dig in. The ULNS people are not outliers since there are so many, but you also have to dig in and understand what they are doing. The ULNS folks do not chase anything... they like lower numbers, but are happy to take their time to get there and diligently work EVERY DAY to stay there. Then, there is the nuance that gets missed... ULNS is not a problem... rushing or chasing to get there can be (and usually is).

I don't like the narrative that people can have success with any method that they choose.. this is just not true. Just because some person did, does not mean that you can. It is better for most to bet on the rule and not the exception. This is kind of like planning on winning the Power Ball to become a millionaire rather than spending less than you make, being smart and saving... which has worked for about 36 million millionaires.

I do not do much with my tank, but this is not laziness. It is a deliberate approach which relies on tried and true methods and equipment and nearly nothing that has not kicked *** for less than 5 years.

I think we’re saying the same thing. I have a pretty low nutrient system now but I’m not chasing low nutrients or trying to rush to low nutrients. It’s just a function of what’s working for me, which is a function of eliminating what didn’t work for me.

But the OP original question was will high po4 kill sps? And I pointed out high can be interpreted many different ways. The OP stated, if I remeber correctly, his po4 is 0.8 ppm. I have no idea if 0.8 ppm will kill sps. Mine have never been that high.