Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[taricha]

I guess that is the end of the discussion.

looks that way, some positions are pretty entrenched.

Anyway, I put together the simplest possible demonstration I could think of for the issue, and sent it to Seachem, to see if there's some path for unexpected clarity....

subject: Treating my Tap water with Prime, and the free ammonia multi-test

"Good morning.
I'm trying to understand how to make sure Prime is binding any NH3 there might be in the tap water I use for my reef tank.

I was wondering if the below pictures were consistent with the expected behavior of Prime and the NH3 sensing disks, or if one of the products is not working as it should, and I should get it replaced?

I took my tap water (low chloramine but detectable, about 0.5ppm on salicylate total ammonia test) and put it in 500mL beakers. One was just the tap water, one got Thiosulfate in excess (40ppm) to release the NH3, and the 3rd got a double dose of Prime. I used the Ammonia multi-test NH3 sensing disks to check. They were pulled out to photograph after being stirred in the samples for 2 hours, and the pH was measured.

This seems good, I think. Does everything look right? The Thiosulfate released measurable NH3, and the Prime almost none (tiniest bit of blue, less than in untreated tap water). It appears that Prime is indeed binding almost all the NH3 released by dechlorinating the tap water chloramines.

Then I buffered each beaker of tap water with a mL of saturated baking soda water, adjusted the pH to ~8.5 with a little dilute HCl, and let the NH3 sensing disks remain in the solution, stirring occasionally. I pulled out the disks to photograph them after 5 hours at the new buffered pH.

Is this picture consistent with how Prime and the NH3 sensing disks should work? Or do I need to get a replacement for one or both of them? Did Prime re-release bound NH3 when the water was buffered to pH ~8.5?"

We'll see if the response offers clarity other than what's already pretty clear.

 

[Dan_P]

looks that way, some positions are pretty entrenched.

Anyway, I put together the simplest possible demonstration I could think of for the issue, and sent it to Seachem, to see if there's some path for unexpected clarity....

subject: Treating my Tap water with Prime, and the free ammonia multi-test

"Good morning.
I'm trying to understand how to make sure Prime is binding any NH3 there might be in the tap water I use for my reef tank.

I was wondering if the below pictures were consistent with the expected behavior of Prime and the NH3 sensing disks, or if one of the products is not working as it should, and I should get it replaced?

I took my tap water (low chloramine but detectable, about 0.5ppm on salicylate total ammonia test) and put it in 500mL beakers. One was just the tap water, one got Thiosulfate in excess (40ppm) to release the NH3, and the 3rd got a double dose of Prime. I used the Ammonia multi-test NH3 sensing disks to check. They were pulled out to photograph after being stirred in the samples for 2 hours, and the pH was measured.

This seems good, I think. Does everything look right? The Thiosulfate released measurable NH3, and the Prime almost none (tiniest bit of blue, less than in untreated tap water). It appears that Prime is indeed binding almost all the NH3 released by dechlorinating the tap water chloramines.

Then I buffered each beaker of tap water with a mL of saturated baking soda water, adjusted the pH to ~8.5 with a little dilute HCl, and let the NH3 sensing disks remain in the solution, stirring occasionally. I pulled out the disks to photograph them after 5 hours at the new buffered pH.

Is this picture consistent with how Prime and the NH3 sensing disks should work? Or do I need to get a replacement for one or both of them? Did Prime re-release bound NH3 when the water was buffered to pH ~8.5?"

We'll see if the response offers clarity other than what's already pretty clear.

I am looking forwards to reading the email chain.

 

[MnFish1]

This is why I said ”talking with tech support is useful to a point”. Seachem tech support does not seem to know much about their own product.

I thought Prime worked quickly, not within 24 hours. I never gave Prime 24 hours. I will give that a try.

All I am reporting is what they said. IDK if its right or not

 

[Dan_P]

All I am reporting is what they said. IDK if its right or not

I prefer scientific information myself.

 

[MnFish1]

I prefer scientific information myself.

Let me know when you find some

 

[Dan_P]

Let me know when you find some

I get the distinct impression that you don’t like data. It might just be me though. l’ll ask @taricha about the impression that came across.

 

[MnFish1]

I get the distinct impression that you don’t like data. It might just be me though. l’ll ask @taricha about the impression that came across.

I said it before, I'll say it again. The most your data shows is that the Seachem alert tests do not work the way Seachem says they should using the methods you're using. There are multiple explanations for this. You are only looking at 1 - which is 'Prime does not work.' I have already said multiple times - you might be correct. IMO, the way you're testing could also be the problem. I do not believe you should be adjusting pH, etc. I see the reason you're doing it, though.

I've had about 15 minutes on the phone with Seneye - who have stated their monitor is not reliable in the place of Prime. That to me is "Data". I've spoken for probably 30+ minutes with people at Seachem who have confirmed that they have indeed tested their alert badge and multitest-ammionia - and if done correctly - will show a decrease in free ammonia. They have done multiple experiments - under many conditions. thats "Data". There is also anecdotal information that Prime works, thats "Data".

I have looked over your experiments, thats "Data".

After reading all of the "data" - I do not feel you can make the statement you have made that "Prime doesn't detoxify ammonia". I've already explained why. I've also suggested that Seachem is happy to talk to hobbyists - I would talk to them and share your results with them - and get their comments. Maybe you can call Seneye and explain to them that Prime does not affect their device?

 

[MnFish1]

Is this picture consistent with how Prime and the NH3 sensing disks should work? Or do I need to get a replacement for one or both of them? Did Prime re-release bound NH3 when the water was buffered to pH ~8.5?"

I do not think you should be buffering the pH. I am not sure why you're using 2x prime. I'm not sure the disks are sensitive enough to say much of anything. BTW - perhaps I'm color blind - but either way - I think the test 'ruler' they use - there is such a close variation in color in the yellow/green, I don't know how to interpret it.

 

[Dan_P]

I said it before, I'll say it again. The most your data shows is that the Seachem alert tests do not work the way Seachem says they should using the methods you're using. There are multiple explanations for this. You are only looking at 1 - which is 'Prime does not work.' I have already said multiple times - you might be correct. IMO, the way you're testing could also be the problem. I do not believe you should be adjusting pH, etc. I see the reason you're doing it, though.

I've had about 15 minutes on the phone with Seneye - who have stated their monitor is not reliable in the place of Prime. That to me is "Data". I've spoken for probably 30+ minutes with people at Seachem who have confirmed that they have indeed tested their alert badge and multitest-ammionia - and if done correctly - will show a decrease in free ammonia. They have done multiple experiments - under many conditions. thats "Data". There is also anecdotal information that Prime works, thats "Data".

I have looked over your experiments, thats "Data".

After reading all of the "data" - I do not feel you can make the statement you have made that "Prime doesn't detoxify ammonia". I've already explained why. I've also suggested that Seachem is happy to talk to hobbyists - I would talk to them and share your results with them - and get their comments. Maybe you can call Seneye and explain to them that Prime does not affect their device?

It might be hard to understand the difference between scientific data and anecdotal information, but keep trying.

There is absolutely no available information that Seachem has done any testing of the Alert product or understand how the Seachem ammonia test works. If they had, that information would freely available on teir website. Publication of it would not threaten their trade secret strategy.

It would be so easy to confirm our findings, or even more exciting, prove us wrong. Give science a try.

 

[MnFish1]

looks that way, some positions are pretty entrenched.

Anyway, I put together the simplest possible demonstration I could think of for the issue, and sent it to Seachem, to see if there's some path for unexpected clarity....

subject: Treating my Tap water with Prime, and the free ammonia multi-test

"Good morning.
I'm trying to understand how to make sure Prime is binding any NH3 there might be in the tap water I use for my reef tank.

I was wondering if the below pictures were consistent with the expected behavior of Prime and the NH3 sensing disks, or if one of the products is not working as it should, and I should get it replaced?

I took my tap water (low chloramine but detectable, about 0.5ppm on salicylate total ammonia test) and put it in 500mL beakers. One was just the tap water, one got Thiosulfate in excess (40ppm) to release the NH3, and the 3rd got a double dose of Prime. I used the Ammonia multi-test NH3 sensing disks to check. They were pulled out to photograph after being stirred in the samples for 2 hours, and the pH was measured.

This seems good, I think. Does everything look right? The Thiosulfate released measurable NH3, and the Prime almost none (tiniest bit of blue, less than in untreated tap water). It appears that Prime is indeed binding almost all the NH3 released by dechlorinating the tap water chloramines.

Then I buffered each beaker of tap water with a mL of saturated baking soda water, adjusted the pH to ~8.5 with a little dilute HCl, and let the NH3 sensing disks remain in the solution, stirring occasionally. I pulled out the disks to photograph them after 5 hours at the new buffered pH.

Is this picture consistent with how Prime and the NH3 sensing disks should work? Or do I need to get a replacement for one or both of them? Did Prime re-release bound NH3 when the water was buffered to pH ~8.5?"

We'll see if the response offers clarity other than what's already pretty clear.

I will respond differently to this - after re-reading. It continues to baffle me why you double or increase/change the ingredients in your testing. Just follow the instructions, and post the results. But - I forgot to mention, I'm glad you contacted Seachem by email

 

[MnFish1]

It might be hard to understand the difference between scientific data and anecdotal information, but keep trying.

There is absolutely no available information that Seachem has done any testing of the Alert product or understand how the Seachem ammonia test works. If they had, that information would freely available on teir website. Publication of it would not threaten their trade secret strategy.

It would be so easy to confirm our findings, or even more exciting, prove us wrong. Give science a try.

I have said you might be right - what about that do you not get? BTW - if you think that a product thats been being sold for decades was just 'thrown together' with no experiments. Then a supposed test kit was designed - with specific instructions that claim to test things a certain way - but the company is just lying, and they have done no experiments to 'prove it', I think thats not logical. Then another company that makes a device which you imply is the gold standard for ammonia measurement - claims it can be interfered with by Prime, you ignore that, etc etc etc.

I appreciate @taricha's efforts to do some of the things I've suggested. Part of 'science' is responding to comments. I appreciate the discussion. Its interesting.

 

[taricha]

I do not think you should be buffering the pH.

Heh.
Because I thought this was the simplest possible demonstration of the issue. It might have been conceptually even simpler if instead of buffering and elevating the pH to mid-8s to simulate using salt mix, I had just actually used salt mix. But salt mix may be seen as more complicated and I wanted to make it clear that pH seems to be the troublesome variable that undoes the binding of NH3.

I am not sure why you're using 2x prime.

Because thiosulfate was also used in excess, and wanted to ensure full dechlorination in both cases.

 

[MnFish1]

Heh.
Because I thought this was the simplest possible demonstration of the issue. It might have been conceptually even simpler if instead of buffering and elevating the pH to mid-8s to simulate using salt mix, I had just actually used salt mix. But salt mix may be seen as more complicated and I wanted to make clear that pH is the troublesome variable that undoes the binding of NH3.


Because thiosulfate was also used in excess, and wanted to ensure full dechlorination in both cases.

Right - I get it - BUT - overdosing things confounds the issue right?

BTW - I wonder if Berkley is on Seachem's payroll:

aquarium – Water and Sanitation

bcws.berkeleycountysc.gov

 

[MnFish1]

If I dechlorinate my sample with excess amount of sodium...

The purpose of dechlorination with sodium thiosulfate is to stop the oxidation of nitrite to nitrate with chlorine and determine the concentrations of these constituents.

www.researchgate.net

This is an interesting Q and A following an article considering ammonia, chloramine, etc. About the different things that can confound testing for ammonia. Thiosulfate being one of them. (BTW - this is also 'science')

@taricha EDIT - here is a quote from (I believe a professor at the Technical University of Denmark: "Beware that thiosulfate does disturb several common analytical methods used to determine both nitrate and ammonia. Check with your laboratory's chemist."

 

[Dan_P]

Right - I get it - BUT - overdosing things confounds the issue right?

BTW - I wonder if Berkley is on Seachem's payroll:

aquarium – Water and Sanitation

bcws.berkeleycountysc.gov

Website OOOPS

If you treat the water with a simple dechlorinator, such as Prime, Amquel, or Aquasafe Plus that only contains sodium thiosulfate, the chlorine is eliminated leaving the free ammonia in the water.

 

[Malcontent]

Website OOOPS

If you treat the water with a simple dechlorinator, such as Prime, Amquel, or Aquasafe Plus that only contains sodium thiosulfate, the chlorine is eliminated leaving the free ammonia in the water.

Don't use a simple dechlorinator like Prime, use Prime instead.

Also, lol at the detoxification via conversion to ammonium. Go back to reddit.

 

[MnFish1]

Website OOOPS

If you treat the water with a simple dechlorinator, such as Prime, Amquel, or Aquasafe Plus that only contains sodium thiosulfate, the chlorine is eliminated leaving the free ammonia in the water.

Right - its a mistake read further down. lol.
Yes - obviously its a typo. Look further down the article:

"Ammonia is also very toxic to fish, so you will need to select a dechlorinator that also has a chemical in it that will convert it to (harmless) ammonium. This would include such products as:

• Seachem “Prime”
• Tetra “Aquasafe NH/CL Formula”
• Jungle’s “ACE”
• Kordon’s “Amquel”
• Kent’s “Professional Ammonia Detox”

If you have any additional questions, please call (843) 719-2345."

Maybe you can add Berkley county water treatment - to the people you should call lol. Its clear from their recommendation what they were trying to say.

 

[MnFish1]

Don't use a simple dechlorinator like Prime, use Prime instead.

Also, lol at the detoxification via conversion to ammonium. Go back to reddit.

LOL Its obviously a typo on the website. What do you mean go back to 'reddit'?

I will give you credit - you picked a perfect 'handle'.

PS - I'm curious - if you live in an area where chloramines are used - do you think fish would die/or show symptoms if only thiosulfate is added to the water? I mean - against your 'opinion' is a water treatment facility recommending ammonia detoxification chemicals - obviously - it was written by a layperson - as compared to a scientist - but their recommendation remains the same - in their area - one should not just use thiosulfate because of chloramines.

PS - I will give you credit - you picked a perfect 'handle'.

 

[Dan_P]

Right - its a mistake read further down. lol.

Yes - obviously its a typo. Look further down the article:

"
Ammonia is also very toxic to fish, so you will need to select a dechlorinator that also has a chemical in it that will convert it to (harmless) ammonium. This would include such products as:

• Seachem “Prime”
• Tetra “Aquasafe NH/CL Formula”
• Jungle’s “ACE”
• Kordon’s “Amquel”
• Kent’s “Professional Ammonia Detox”

If you have any additional questions, please call (843) 719-2345."

Maybe you can add Berkley county water treatment - to the people you should call lol. Its clear from their recommendation what they were trying to day.

Another typo? Harmless ammonium, like ammonium does not equilibrate to a mixture of NH3 and NH4+. I don’t think I am going to learn much from these folks.

 

[MnFish1]

In fact - I have a simple question - very simple. If you take water from a system that contains chloramines. You add Thiosulfate, who here would be comfortable adding fish to that water?

If you're not comfortable, what would you do? Lots of people add Prime etc. The reason - if they do not, they have dead fish.

From Duke.edu: "Chloramine can be safely neutralized through such products as Amquel, which neutralize both the ammonia and chlorine portions of the chloramine molecules. The neutralized ammonia will still be converted to nitrates via a biological filter."