Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[kecked]

I really aggravated with myself for trashing my system so I take this one personal.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From that Fritz Ammonia reducer thread the other day, I wanted to follow up if we knew for sure that Prime was not the amquel compound, hydroxymethanesulfonate. The reason for asking is that the directions seem quite similar.

Does Fritz ammonia remover/detoxifier work?

I wanna know if it at all works or once that ammonia is detoxified will it be converted to nitrates?

www.reef2reef.com

I noted in the past (2007) in my ammonia article (for Marineland Biosafe) that there's a potential problem with some of these descriptions that either the name is wrong or the CAS number is wrong. The Fritz SDS:

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/ACCR_Dry_SDS_050619.pdf

gives the name hydroxymethanesulfinite (inate) while the actual name of that CAS number is the structure hydroxymethanesulfonate (onate)

In any case, have we established that Seachem Prime cannot just be hydroxymethanusulfonate? (like some other ammonia products)

 

[Freenow54]

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit.

Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap water, it dechlorinates Chlorine and Chloramine. This effect is strong and easily measurable by test kits.

But Prime also claims that it "...detoxifies ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter." They say that the normal dose of Prime can detoxify 1ppm ammonia.

NH3 is the toxic form of ammonia, which under normal tank conditions is a tiny part of the total ammonia (Randy's Article for details). Most chemical kits measure total ammonia - NH3+NH4, and so seachem says that these kits can't detect the effect of Prime to detoxify NH3. And one should instead use a test method that measures only free ammonia - NH3 instead, according to Seachem - such as their kit.
"However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit; it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (total ammonia is both free ammonia and non-toxic ionized forms of ammonia)."

So here we go.

I pulled a liter of tank water, spiked it with ammonia to ~1ppm total ammonia.

API at 5 min confirms it's in the ballpark of 0.5-1ppm total ammonia.


Then I dosed a drop of Prime from two separate bottles (one new unopened) into the 1L of water. Approximately a double dose from each for a cumulative 4x dose of Prime and stirred.

After 30 minutes, I then used the ammonia sensing films from the seachem kit to see if the measured free ammonia, NH3 was decreased by the "detoxifying" effect of Prime.
The ammonia sensing discs are supposed to be read at 15 or 30 minutes to determine free ammonia.

Each beaker has ~75mL of sample water.
Bottom left is tank water only - clean zero
Two in the middle top and bottom are replicates of tank water +1ppm total ammonia - disks form a color as they should, approximately consistent with 1ppm total ammonia at ~8.0pH (maybe around 0.05 on the top 30 minute scale of the color card)
Top right beaker is tank water +1ppm total ammonia +4x dose of Prime - the disk forms exactly the same color as the samples that were not treated with Prime. The same amount of NH3 is apparently present.

So according to Seachem's free ammonia kit, Seachem Prime does not do anything to decrease toxic free ammonia, NH3. If it has any effect, it's gone within 30 minutes.

(BTW, when I overdose prime to 30x recommended dose, it still didn't decrease the NH3 measured.)

Maybe Prime worked better for @Dan_P measuring with the Seneye NH3 sensing device???

Update: see Dan's measured zero effect from Prime with two more ammonia detecting kits in post number 16

Update: Amphipods seem to fare equally poorly when exposed to NH3, whether treated with Prime or not. post number 44

Perfect Thank You

 

[Dan_P]

From that Fritz Ammonia reducer thread the other day, I wanted to follow up if we knew for sure that Prime was not the amquel compound, hydroxymethanesulfonate. The reason for asking is that the directions seem quite similar.

Does Fritz ammonia remover/detoxifier work?

I wanna know if it at all works or once that ammonia is detoxified will it be converted to nitrates?

www.reef2reef.com

I noted in the past (2007) in my ammonia article (for Marineland Biosafe) that there's a potential problem with some of these descriptions that either the name is wrong or the CAS number is wrong. The Fritz SDS:

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/ACCR_Dry_SDS_050619.pdf

gives the name hydroxymethanesulfinite (inate) while the actual name of that CAS number is the structure hydroxymethanesulfonate (onate)

In any case, have we established that Seachem Prime cannot just be hydroxymethanusulfonate? (like some other ammonia products)

Just read this post. @taricha has made recent observations (yep, we are back at this) that lead to an interesting conclusion about Prime’s content.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Just read this post. @taricha has made recent observations (yep, we are back at this) that lead to an interesting conclusion about Prime’s content.

Do tell...

 

[Dan_P]

Do tell...

The clever investigation was done mostly by @taricha and there is a ton of new information we have assembled, or rather I contributed about 0.10 ton to the total. I wil let him decide how much to reveal at this time

 

[threebuoys]

The clever investigation was done mostly by @taricha and there is a ton of new information we have assembled, or rather I contributed about 0.10 ton to the total. I wil let him decide how much to reveal at this time

What a TEASER!!!!

 

[taricha]

there's a potential problem with some of these descriptions that either the name is wrong or the CAS number is wrong. The Fritz SDS:

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/ACCR_Dry_SDS_050619.pdf
gives the name hydroxymethanesulfinite (inate) while the actual name of that CAS number is the structure hydroxymethanesulfonate (onate)

I missed this post too. When I eventually noticed the Fritz CAS and name were different compounds, I was annoyed and got a bottle to figure out which one they meant.

I wil let him decide how much to reveal at this time

Let's say that the products in your LFS with ammonia removal claims may generally be more similar than is assumed. But the details matter a lot.

For those who are bored, Hydroxymethanesulfonate is the compound in ClorAm-X whose patent we've talked about a bit in this thread.
Hydroxymethanesulfinate is a.k.a. rongalite and has an interesting patent as well, that maybe should be talked about.
see attached.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I missed this post too. When I eventually noticed the Fritz CAS and name were different compounds, I was annoyed and got a bottle to figure out which one they meant.

Let's say that the products in your LFS with ammonia removal claims may generally be more similar than is assumed. But the details matter a lot.

For those who are bored, Hydroxymethanesulfonate is the compound in ClorAm-X whose patent we've talked about a bit in this thread.
Hydroxymethanesulfinate is a.k.a. rongalite and has an interesting patent as well, that maybe should be talked about.
see attached.

Yes, I noted that difference in the past and was not sure if it was a typo or a real difference:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Various types of compounds are used in commercial products to bind ammonia in marine aquaria. One is hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-). It is a known ammonia binder16 patented for aquarium use by John F. Kuhns17 and sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others.

Ammonia's reaction with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product aminomethanesulfonate (shown below).16 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- --> H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

What ultimately happens to the aminomethanesulfonate in a marine or reef aquarium is not well established, but it does appear to be significantly less toxic than ammonia, and more than likely it is processed by bacteria into other compounds.

Marineland Bio-Safe claims to contain sodium hydroxymethanesulfinic acid (HOCH2SO2-). I do not know if that is a typographical error, or if Marineland really uses this slightly different compound.

 

[Malcontent]

I think I've seen that Tetra patent before. Strangely, Tetra is the only big player that doesn't have a water conditioner that "binds" to ammonia.

They do have a product that reduces ammonia toxicity...by lowering pH.

Besides testing for the presence of formaldehyde, I did find a possible method to test for the presence of dithionite but lost interest after it became apparent Prime doesn't do most of what it claims.

Aquariumscience claimed to have determined it was dithionite via the use of a "Ramen" spectrometer but I suspect most, if not all, of his experimental data is faked.

 

[MnFish1]

I think I've seen that Tetra patent before. Strangely, Tetra is the only big player that doesn't have a water conditioner that "binds" to ammonia.

They do have a product that reduces ammonia toxicity...by lowering pH.

Besides testing for the presence of formaldehyde, I did find a possible method to test for the presence of dithionite but lost interest after it became apparent Prime doesn't do most of what it claims.

Aquariumscience claimed to have determined it was dithionite via the use of a "Ramen" spectrometer but I suspect most, if not all, of his experimental data is faked.

There are products out there that remove nitrite/ammonia. I'm done with the debate about prime - which is a single product - that people disagree with. I do not think most ammonia reducing products do so by reducing pH - however, some probably do. I might suggest you post this as its own thread

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are products out there that remove nitrite/ammonia.

Is there any data from any manufacturer for any molecule to remove ammonia or nitrite from seawater in a way that is useful for organisms (aside from pH)?

This patent does the sort of uncontrolled experiment one might expect: no deaths with treatment, and no control aquarium of any sort.

US5082573A - Method for detoxifying ammonia and chloramine in aquatic environments - Google Patents

A method for detoxifying ammonia in an ammonia-containing aquatic system comprises adding to the system a novel composition comprising an amine-based ammonia detoxifying solution in an amount effective to detoxifying substantially all of the ammonia, where the solution is non-toxic and has a pH...

patents.google.com

 

[MnFish1]

Is there any data from any manufacturer for any molecule to remove ammonia or nitrite from seawater in a way that is useful for organisms (aside from pH)?

This patent does the sort of uncontrolled experiment one might expect: no deaths with treatment, and no control aquarium of any sort.

US5082573A - Method for detoxifying ammonia and chloramine in aquatic environments - Google Patents

A method for detoxifying ammonia in an ammonia-containing aquatic system comprises adding to the system a novel composition comprising an amine-based ammonia detoxifying solution in an amount effective to detoxifying substantially all of the ammonia, where the solution is non-toxic and has a pH...

patents.google.com

If you want you can search R2R about my experience with my discus tank - which shows a product that within an hour changed the fish from laying obtunded on the surface of the water to swimming normally. Have I used these products in saltwater - no. Most products in saltwater (unless you can show me - I haven't seen it) - do not reduce pH significantly for long periods of time - since the alkalinity in the tank helps buffer. Now - I'm repeating - this has nothing to do with prime. Just with another product I've used in freshwater

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you want you can search R2R about my experience with my discus tank - which shows a product that within an hour changed the fish from laying obtunded on the surface of the water to swimming normally. Have I used these products in saltwater - no. Most products in saltwater (unless you can show me - I haven't seen it) - do not reduce pH significantly for long periods of time - since the alkalinity in the tank helps buffer. Now - I'm repeating - this has nothing to do with prime. Just with another product I've used in freshwater

Which product?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Obtunded

learned a new word today.

 

[MnFish1]

Obtunded

learned a new word today.

Seriously? Basically moribund, floating on the surface - the product - API aqua essentials - here are the ingredients: "
inorganic salts, proprietary
EDTA TETRASODIUM SALT
SODIUM FORMALDEHYDE BISULFI
sodium metabisulfite"

 

[MnFish1]

Seriously? Basically moribund, floating on the surface - the product - API aqua essentials - here are the ingredients: "
inorganic salts, proprietary
EDTA TETRASODIUM SALT
SODIUM FORMALDEHYDE BISULFI
sodium metabisulfite"

Now - my guess - if you look at my thread with the pictures - according to my discus expert - the fish were experiencing nitrite toxicity after an overfeeding. I imagine that these chemicals may not work as well in saltwater. - but you can see the pictures of the fish before and after

 

[MnFish1]

Is there any data from any manufacturer for any molecule to remove ammonia or nitrite from seawater in a way that is useful for organisms (aside from pH)?

This patent does the sort of uncontrolled experiment one might expect: no deaths with treatment, and no control aquarium of any sort.

US5082573A - Method for detoxifying ammonia and chloramine in aquatic environments - Google Patents

A method for detoxifying ammonia in an ammonia-containing aquatic system comprises adding to the system a novel composition comprising an amine-based ammonia detoxifying solution in an amount effective to detoxifying substantially all of the ammonia, where the solution is non-toxic and has a pH...

patents.google.com

I can only testify to what worked in my freshwater discus tank. Which is what I discussed. In my case my own aquarium acted as a control. Overfed in the evening, fish floating at the top in the morning - dosed the product - fish swimming normally in an hour. Granted this is in freshwater. I.e. I can't scientifically analyze the product or its patents. However, After 3 instances, It is helpful after a filter stoppage, overfeeding, etc - in freshwater. Per my observations.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seriously? Basically moribund, floating on the surface -

Yes, it not a word that I recall ever encountering.

It would be a very bad day if an animal study I was performing had that result. lol

That's the Kuhns material. hydroxymethanesulfonate. His patent also only compared bagged marine fish to his expectation of what might have happened without it.

U.S. Pat. No. 4,666,610

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/9d/8d/7d/82bd73cbbe0819/US4666610.pdf

example 8

Four such boxes containing a total of 65 bags of liveanimals were then shipped from St. Thomas, via scheduled common air carrier, to Miami, Fla., thence to Kansas City, Mo. The total shipping time was approximately 48 hours. No untreated controls were used inthis test.It is well known among aquaculturists that marinefishes and invertebrates suffer from and succumb toammonia build-up in shipping bags containing untreatedwater and that significant losses can be expected. However, there were no deaths of any of the marine fishesand invertebrates shipped in #2 SFB treated-seawater.The health and condition of the fishes and invertebratesupon arrival and subsequent removal to holding aquariawas contrary to what would have occurred if no provision for ammonia control had been made.

 

[Dan_P]

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- --> H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

What ultimately happens to the aminomethanesulfonate in a marine or reef aquarium is not well established, but it does appear to be significantly less toxic than ammonia, and more than likely it is processed by bacteria into other compounds.

I would add that we should not think of the amino compound in water as a stable product but in equilibrium with the ammonia, formaldehyde and bisulfite. Also, pH likely plays a role in the position of the equilibrium. By the way, hydroxymethanesulphonic acid is found many places in the environment, and I think even in beer.