Does this fish look healthy?
- Thread starter nonstopfish
- Start date
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Eckolancer
LED GURU
I have brought back fish much worse than this before. Just need to get them in there own tank and treat the fish for internal and external diseases. Also make sure you can get them eating within 24 hours.
Breakthecycle2
2500 Club Member
Yeah, thats a Mustard Gutatus
Lowstorm
Well-Known Member
Thats so sad. Whenever I order fish online-which is often, I've never seen something that skinny, even with parasites. I'd assume that it wasn't eating well and the stress from shipping did him in. He probably would have survived if there was no shipping involved.
OP
OP
nonstopfish
Active Member
Pretty tough to put them in a tank by themselves when they are dead. Was acclimating to go into QT with one other fish. In QT they get treated for both, but they have to make it into the tank first. Same goes for getting them to eat.
OP
OP
nonstopfish
Active Member
The Story
Just over 3 weeks ago I decided to give 3 to 5 Aquatics a try. He posted a thread for very small Mustard Guttatus Tangs and I had been looking for a small one for quite some time. Figured I would give his business a chance as I really liked the fish.
I texted him, he was cordial and answered my questions and sent me a video of the fish. I decided to make a purchase and paypaled payment. We had some dialogue as to what other fish he had since I was paying for shipping already anyway. He mentioned getting in Red Sea Regal Angels. Another fish I greatly enjoy. So after seeing video of this fish as well, I added to my order and sent payment.
We arranged a suitable date and everything was going smoothly. A few days after I had ordered I asked about him getting smaller Regal's in. He said he had a couple and he would allow me to swap if I wanted a small one. I was very pleased with this and told him I would take the small one he sent a picture of. So the 2 fish were to ship the following week.
I had provided my shipping address on both of the payments. I noticed I had a typo on one of the shipping addresses zip codes on paypal. So I verified with him well before shipping that the address he was shipping to was correct. The day of I verified once again. He shipped them out and tracking information was sent.
The next day arrives, package set to arrive by 1030am to my office. I had made it clear I needed the fish shipped to work to receive them.
11am rolls around and the fish still haven't arrived. The Fedex tracking information shows that they arrived in my area early in the morning and that the package was scheduled for delivery by 1030am. So still no updates. Shortly there after the tracking information updated and it said delivery exception, incorrect address. I called Fedex immediately to see how that was possible. I verified the address and they told me the zip code was incorrect. He had shipped it to the wrong zip code even after multiple verifications. Simple enough error despite the follow ups, I just needed to know where the fish were. Fedex said they had already corrected the zip code and were transferring the package to the correct facility to put it on a truck and get it to me. They said it would still make it by end of day. They said they would update me when it arrived at the proper facility. They did not, so I called again. I got a correct update and with 15 minutes later the package arrived. It was approximately 130pm at this point.
I immediately open the package and pull out the first bag. The Regal angel is huge and is DOA. It is SINGLE bagged and the bag has leaked and has no water left. The Mustard tang is very pale but alive and laying on it's side in a corner of the bag. The bag is freezing cold. I have to dig to find the heat packs. They were put on the bottom of the package in the peanuts and as soon as the single bag leaked they were no longer working. They likely wouldn't have worked anyway with no oxygen on the bottom being fully smushed by peanuts and bags. I verify the tang can swim and watch it go right back to the corner of the bag. This doesn't entirely surprise me. I figure it is trying to hide.
I place the Mustard tang a few feet from a coworkers space heater . Close enough to the space heater to slowly warm the freezing bag, but not real close so it doesn't heat super fast.
I text 3 to 5 and let them know the angel is DOA and further update him on my issues with this order. I had let him know as I heard from Fedex what was going on so he was in the loop. He calls and I tell him how I am frustrated that he sent the wrong fish, to the wrong address, single bagged, and poorly packed. He apologizes and explains his error regarding it being the wrong fish and all the other problems. I also let him know the Mustard is not looking well, but he tells me they come in like that and he will be fine. I know that is very possible and will see. He says he will send a small replacement free of charge the following week as he still has one. I obviously find this agreeable.
The Mustard tang continues to warm up until 430pm when I leave work. I take it home and float it to further balance the remaining difference in temperature and prepare to drip acclimate. The fish is regaining color, but is still laying in the bag. I remove him into a small bucket to begin dripping. Before doing so, I check the salinity. 1.018. Yikes! Never provided any information that this would be the case and the video he sent of the fish showed them in a tank with corals. I had my quarantine tank setup a bit lower than reef settings and just had to add some more rodi water to equalize the salinities before acclimation. So not a huge deal for me, but could be for many people.
I begin to drip acclimate and watch the tang. He is laying in the bucket and not the usual lay down to hide. He is partially upside down like he is going belly up. I continue to acclimate and once I am done put him into the quarantine tank by himself. He floats to the bottom and lays there for a while. He eventually turns himself up and starts swimming a little ways. As soon as he stops his body turns sideways. He moves around a couple more times while I watch him and every time the same thing. He stops in open water and quickly his body swinging around and he is almost completely upside down as he falls to the bottom. After watching him for a while I have to head out and I leave him with the lights off and tank front partially covered to rest. I get home late and quickly look before going to bed, the tang is still laying on the bottom.
The next morning I had to be out of the house super early for work and didn't get down to check on him. From work I am able to check my webcam and watch for a long time in the morning and never see any sign of the fish. I come home to it laying in the same spot as the night before and dead. Looking like it had been dead quite some time. I am quite certain it died in the night but can't say for sure. I text him and tell him what has happened. I tell him I understand his has an Arrive Alive guarantee, but considering all the mistakes he has made and I believe the stress from those mistakes ultimately led to the demise of the fish I think we need to work something out.
After much back and forth we both compromise. I lay more good money after bad against my judgement and will pay $50 more and buy an African Exquisite wrasse to help us both.
So the following week the 3 fish are supposed to ship. Late in the week he tells me now he doesn't want to ship because the Mustard tang hadn't been with him long. The following week arrives and weathers delays shipping. He is then going to ship late in the week. The night to ship comes and he tells me Fedex couldn't scan his package and he had to bring the fish back and reacclimate. I find this quite odd. He sends me a short video of the Mustard tang swimming, hard to tell anything from the video. I ask for a video of the Regal as well. He messages me back immediately about how he's finding they don't ship well. I ask him what that has to do with the video or if he is referring to not shipping the night prior. He says he is confused and then says he will send a video of the Regal shortly. He doesn't. The next day I text him and he sends a video of the Regal.
We plan on Monday for Tuesday shipping. The package is once again deliver to my office. I sign for it at 10am and have to go into a meeting immediately(my mistake here). So I leave it unopened at my desk(70 degrees). Around 1230 I have a chance and open the box. The Mustard tang is the first bag I pull out.
Water is cold. Fish is completely emaciated, with bright red gills and mouth, what looks like a dusting of fungus on it's body, and floating vertically in the bag.
He is shipped in a very large bag, so big that it doesn't really fit in the box and the box had been taped excessively to hold it down. The Regal angel is a sizably bigger fish between the two and is in a much smaller bag. It is acting normal when I pull it out, but you can see frayed fins, a couple big white bumps on it's tail, and it's dorsal fin looking like it's rotting a bit. The wrasse looks totally fine(except for that it is almost certainly an Indonesian and not African Exquisite, which I never even mention to him).
(note the water wasn't really as cloudy as it looks in the photo)
It takes me a little bit, but I text him and tell him the wrasse and angel look fine(despite the issues), but that the tang is in horrible condition. I ask him if this fish has been eating like he said and if he truly believed this fish was healthy enough to ship out. I tell him I believe the answer is no to both questions.
He tells me that the fish has been eating everyday for over two weeks and was healthy. That their is no way it could be sick.
From there he immediately blames me and says he will never ship to a Fedex location again(he didn't, it was to my work). When I say that, he then quickly changes to he can't believe I would ship a fish to work and not immediately acclimate it. That he never would have shipped it to me if he would have known(he knew, I told him many times it was my work address). He tells me he has never heard of anyone shipping to work before and not acclimating immediately. That no one has ever done that. Denies the fish is super skinny and much more.
I respond by telling him I have shipped to my work countless times without issue. I know dozens of people that have done the same. The businesses all over the country send fish to people at work and I don't know how he has never heard of this. That if he shipped properly and shipped healthy fish this would never be an issue. That it would have taken me 2 days vacation to receive this order between a nearly full day the first time, the cancelled ship date night of, and then the half day for this shipment. That is not possible. He then tells me he knows many clients that have 20 gallons setup at work to drip acclimate fish while they work. What? Do any of his clients buying expensive fish have jobs in offices? How do they afford to buy expensive fish if they don't work?
I explain that I am not trying to be difficult. That I am just trying to get the fish I have now paid nearly $500 for and all I want is fish to show up healthy for my money. That I didn't want any of the problems any more than he did, but that he runs a business and has to be accountable. That he should be able to understand my frustration because all I have to show for spending a lot to get a Mustard tang is a nearly dead fish with no chance of survival.
He tells me again this fish ate everyday for over 2 weeks and that he already ate the loss the first time(we both did despite all his mistakes).
There is a bit more back and forth as I go home to acclimate the fish. I acclimate much as I always do. I opened up the Mustard tang bag to an awful smell. I test the water, once again 1.018. I drip acclimate them in separate containers and the Mustard is faintly breathing the whole time but not moving. Within 10 minutes of beginning the drip it stops breathing and is dead.
I place the other two fish into quarantine and text 3 to 5 that the fish is going into the freezer and I can verify it's dead. I explain all that is wrong with this fish. You can see it's entire spine, it's body is as thick as it's tail, the cheeks are totally sunken in, and the organs are the only mass behind it's gills. That this fish never had a chance of surviving shipping. I also note, that I haven't complain or said anything about the Regal even though he sent that fish not healthy either. That there is rot on the dorsal, frayed fins, and white dots on it's tail.
(note: flash of the camera makes the fish look more warmly colored than it is, pics taken immediately after death)
He erupts in response. Says he has "had enough." That he will not take responsibility for someone who doesn't immediately acclimate their fish. That I can go piece by piece and blame him, but the truth is what I did is unheard of and goes against everything he believes in. That he has been scammed by too many people and tried to be fair and that it was my fault the first time too. Then says to never contact him anymore.
I reply once more and he hasn't responded.
I posted pictures here without naming the vendor or really explaining any of the story to see what unbiased people said about this fish before writing this.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-this-fish-look-healthy.236624/
The Feedback
I strongly recommend staying away from this "business." I have received a number of PM's from people expressing the same thoughts I have here. This guy is incompetent for starters, clearly shown by the countless mistakes he made. He also doesn't understand how businesses work. And lastly, he is a scam artist. If things don't go well for him either through his mistakes or happenstance he gets angry.
Maybe I am totally wrong and I am one of the few that ships to work and doesn't immediately acclimate their fish and corals. I don't think that has anything to do with the lack of survival here because the fish weren't healthy when they arrived.
Either way, I have clearly learned my lesson to take a risk and try someone new. I don't want any of you to make the same mistake I did and waste good money. I will be sticking with my go to places from now on. Hopefully this "business" will be gone soon as more people see what a nightmare it is to buy from him.
Just over 3 weeks ago I decided to give 3 to 5 Aquatics a try. He posted a thread for very small Mustard Guttatus Tangs and I had been looking for a small one for quite some time. Figured I would give his business a chance as I really liked the fish.
I texted him, he was cordial and answered my questions and sent me a video of the fish. I decided to make a purchase and paypaled payment. We had some dialogue as to what other fish he had since I was paying for shipping already anyway. He mentioned getting in Red Sea Regal Angels. Another fish I greatly enjoy. So after seeing video of this fish as well, I added to my order and sent payment.
We arranged a suitable date and everything was going smoothly. A few days after I had ordered I asked about him getting smaller Regal's in. He said he had a couple and he would allow me to swap if I wanted a small one. I was very pleased with this and told him I would take the small one he sent a picture of. So the 2 fish were to ship the following week.
I had provided my shipping address on both of the payments. I noticed I had a typo on one of the shipping addresses zip codes on paypal. So I verified with him well before shipping that the address he was shipping to was correct. The day of I verified once again. He shipped them out and tracking information was sent.
The next day arrives, package set to arrive by 1030am to my office. I had made it clear I needed the fish shipped to work to receive them.
11am rolls around and the fish still haven't arrived. The Fedex tracking information shows that they arrived in my area early in the morning and that the package was scheduled for delivery by 1030am. So still no updates. Shortly there after the tracking information updated and it said delivery exception, incorrect address. I called Fedex immediately to see how that was possible. I verified the address and they told me the zip code was incorrect. He had shipped it to the wrong zip code even after multiple verifications. Simple enough error despite the follow ups, I just needed to know where the fish were. Fedex said they had already corrected the zip code and were transferring the package to the correct facility to put it on a truck and get it to me. They said it would still make it by end of day. They said they would update me when it arrived at the proper facility. They did not, so I called again. I got a correct update and with 15 minutes later the package arrived. It was approximately 130pm at this point.
I immediately open the package and pull out the first bag. The Regal angel is huge and is DOA. It is SINGLE bagged and the bag has leaked and has no water left. The Mustard tang is very pale but alive and laying on it's side in a corner of the bag. The bag is freezing cold. I have to dig to find the heat packs. They were put on the bottom of the package in the peanuts and as soon as the single bag leaked they were no longer working. They likely wouldn't have worked anyway with no oxygen on the bottom being fully smushed by peanuts and bags. I verify the tang can swim and watch it go right back to the corner of the bag. This doesn't entirely surprise me. I figure it is trying to hide.
I place the Mustard tang a few feet from a coworkers space heater . Close enough to the space heater to slowly warm the freezing bag, but not real close so it doesn't heat super fast.
I text 3 to 5 and let them know the angel is DOA and further update him on my issues with this order. I had let him know as I heard from Fedex what was going on so he was in the loop. He calls and I tell him how I am frustrated that he sent the wrong fish, to the wrong address, single bagged, and poorly packed. He apologizes and explains his error regarding it being the wrong fish and all the other problems. I also let him know the Mustard is not looking well, but he tells me they come in like that and he will be fine. I know that is very possible and will see. He says he will send a small replacement free of charge the following week as he still has one. I obviously find this agreeable.
The Mustard tang continues to warm up until 430pm when I leave work. I take it home and float it to further balance the remaining difference in temperature and prepare to drip acclimate. The fish is regaining color, but is still laying in the bag. I remove him into a small bucket to begin dripping. Before doing so, I check the salinity. 1.018. Yikes! Never provided any information that this would be the case and the video he sent of the fish showed them in a tank with corals. I had my quarantine tank setup a bit lower than reef settings and just had to add some more rodi water to equalize the salinities before acclimation. So not a huge deal for me, but could be for many people.
I begin to drip acclimate and watch the tang. He is laying in the bucket and not the usual lay down to hide. He is partially upside down like he is going belly up. I continue to acclimate and once I am done put him into the quarantine tank by himself. He floats to the bottom and lays there for a while. He eventually turns himself up and starts swimming a little ways. As soon as he stops his body turns sideways. He moves around a couple more times while I watch him and every time the same thing. He stops in open water and quickly his body swinging around and he is almost completely upside down as he falls to the bottom. After watching him for a while I have to head out and I leave him with the lights off and tank front partially covered to rest. I get home late and quickly look before going to bed, the tang is still laying on the bottom.
The next morning I had to be out of the house super early for work and didn't get down to check on him. From work I am able to check my webcam and watch for a long time in the morning and never see any sign of the fish. I come home to it laying in the same spot as the night before and dead. Looking like it had been dead quite some time. I am quite certain it died in the night but can't say for sure. I text him and tell him what has happened. I tell him I understand his has an Arrive Alive guarantee, but considering all the mistakes he has made and I believe the stress from those mistakes ultimately led to the demise of the fish I think we need to work something out.
After much back and forth we both compromise. I lay more good money after bad against my judgement and will pay $50 more and buy an African Exquisite wrasse to help us both.
So the following week the 3 fish are supposed to ship. Late in the week he tells me now he doesn't want to ship because the Mustard tang hadn't been with him long. The following week arrives and weathers delays shipping. He is then going to ship late in the week. The night to ship comes and he tells me Fedex couldn't scan his package and he had to bring the fish back and reacclimate. I find this quite odd. He sends me a short video of the Mustard tang swimming, hard to tell anything from the video. I ask for a video of the Regal as well. He messages me back immediately about how he's finding they don't ship well. I ask him what that has to do with the video or if he is referring to not shipping the night prior. He says he is confused and then says he will send a video of the Regal shortly. He doesn't. The next day I text him and he sends a video of the Regal.
We plan on Monday for Tuesday shipping. The package is once again deliver to my office. I sign for it at 10am and have to go into a meeting immediately(my mistake here). So I leave it unopened at my desk(70 degrees). Around 1230 I have a chance and open the box. The Mustard tang is the first bag I pull out.
Water is cold. Fish is completely emaciated, with bright red gills and mouth, what looks like a dusting of fungus on it's body, and floating vertically in the bag.
He is shipped in a very large bag, so big that it doesn't really fit in the box and the box had been taped excessively to hold it down. The Regal angel is a sizably bigger fish between the two and is in a much smaller bag. It is acting normal when I pull it out, but you can see frayed fins, a couple big white bumps on it's tail, and it's dorsal fin looking like it's rotting a bit. The wrasse looks totally fine(except for that it is almost certainly an Indonesian and not African Exquisite, which I never even mention to him).
(note the water wasn't really as cloudy as it looks in the photo)
It takes me a little bit, but I text him and tell him the wrasse and angel look fine(despite the issues), but that the tang is in horrible condition. I ask him if this fish has been eating like he said and if he truly believed this fish was healthy enough to ship out. I tell him I believe the answer is no to both questions.
He tells me that the fish has been eating everyday for over two weeks and was healthy. That their is no way it could be sick.
From there he immediately blames me and says he will never ship to a Fedex location again(he didn't, it was to my work). When I say that, he then quickly changes to he can't believe I would ship a fish to work and not immediately acclimate it. That he never would have shipped it to me if he would have known(he knew, I told him many times it was my work address). He tells me he has never heard of anyone shipping to work before and not acclimating immediately. That no one has ever done that. Denies the fish is super skinny and much more.
I respond by telling him I have shipped to my work countless times without issue. I know dozens of people that have done the same. The businesses all over the country send fish to people at work and I don't know how he has never heard of this. That if he shipped properly and shipped healthy fish this would never be an issue. That it would have taken me 2 days vacation to receive this order between a nearly full day the first time, the cancelled ship date night of, and then the half day for this shipment. That is not possible. He then tells me he knows many clients that have 20 gallons setup at work to drip acclimate fish while they work. What? Do any of his clients buying expensive fish have jobs in offices? How do they afford to buy expensive fish if they don't work?
I explain that I am not trying to be difficult. That I am just trying to get the fish I have now paid nearly $500 for and all I want is fish to show up healthy for my money. That I didn't want any of the problems any more than he did, but that he runs a business and has to be accountable. That he should be able to understand my frustration because all I have to show for spending a lot to get a Mustard tang is a nearly dead fish with no chance of survival.
He tells me again this fish ate everyday for over 2 weeks and that he already ate the loss the first time(we both did despite all his mistakes).
There is a bit more back and forth as I go home to acclimate the fish. I acclimate much as I always do. I opened up the Mustard tang bag to an awful smell. I test the water, once again 1.018. I drip acclimate them in separate containers and the Mustard is faintly breathing the whole time but not moving. Within 10 minutes of beginning the drip it stops breathing and is dead.
I place the other two fish into quarantine and text 3 to 5 that the fish is going into the freezer and I can verify it's dead. I explain all that is wrong with this fish. You can see it's entire spine, it's body is as thick as it's tail, the cheeks are totally sunken in, and the organs are the only mass behind it's gills. That this fish never had a chance of surviving shipping. I also note, that I haven't complain or said anything about the Regal even though he sent that fish not healthy either. That there is rot on the dorsal, frayed fins, and white dots on it's tail.
(note: flash of the camera makes the fish look more warmly colored than it is, pics taken immediately after death)
He erupts in response. Says he has "had enough." That he will not take responsibility for someone who doesn't immediately acclimate their fish. That I can go piece by piece and blame him, but the truth is what I did is unheard of and goes against everything he believes in. That he has been scammed by too many people and tried to be fair and that it was my fault the first time too. Then says to never contact him anymore.
I reply once more and he hasn't responded.
I posted pictures here without naming the vendor or really explaining any of the story to see what unbiased people said about this fish before writing this.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-this-fish-look-healthy.236624/
The Feedback
I strongly recommend staying away from this "business." I have received a number of PM's from people expressing the same thoughts I have here. This guy is incompetent for starters, clearly shown by the countless mistakes he made. He also doesn't understand how businesses work. And lastly, he is a scam artist. If things don't go well for him either through his mistakes or happenstance he gets angry.
Maybe I am totally wrong and I am one of the few that ships to work and doesn't immediately acclimate their fish and corals. I don't think that has anything to do with the lack of survival here because the fish weren't healthy when they arrived.
Either way, I have clearly learned my lesson to take a risk and try someone new. I don't want any of you to make the same mistake I did and waste good money. I will be sticking with my go to places from now on. Hopefully this "business" will be gone soon as more people see what a nightmare it is to buy from him.
OP
OP
nonstopfish
Active Member
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