DOS dumped 1L of Alk into 250g tank in 3hrs

[NEFFx]

So was looking at my Ph sky rocket and wondered what was happening. Come to find the new program on my DOS seems to be wrong and instead of dosing the 40ml it’s programmed to do. It just kept dosing.

1. I only have about 40g-60g of water to do a water change with. Which I’m going to do shortly.
2 how do I program my DOS properly.

thoughts on either or better options appreciated. It’s an SPS reef.
TRIDENT is testing now.

 

[Gtinnel]

I'm not the best at programming but its that on statement that caused your problem. The problem is that it isn't constantly checking alk, so when the alk drops to turn on the dos (which runs at some present constant speed when turned "on") it won't get a reading to turn it off until the alk is tested again 6 hours later.

 

[Gtinnel]

Also when setting mine up I just went through the task to do it.

 

[NEFFx]

I'm not the best at programming but its that on statement that caused your problem. The problem is that it isn't constantly checking alk, so when the alk drops to turn on the dos (which runs at some present constant speed when turned "on") it won't get a reading to turn it off until the alk is tested again 6 hours later.

Yea I just figured it dose the 40ml it is set to do a day. I didn’t think it would bypass that.

 

[Gtinnel]

Yea I just figured it dose the 40ml it is set to do a day. I didn’t think it would bypass that.

When the manual programming turns it on it will continue to run until something turns it back off, which again probably won't happen until the next alk test and by then it's already became a big issue. Also if you have the calcium programmed the same you need to change it too, other wise the same thing will happen when your calcium falls.

 

[Gtinnel]

Wait I just looked I wonder why it didn't shut off from your pH, unless that is what finally shut it off.

To program it go to the tasks and do the trident controlled dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is the tank white with precipitate?

here's my advice on similar kalkwasser overdoses:

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

When limewater is substantially overdosed, the transient precipitation of magnesium hydroxide from normal use may not be the only precipitate that forms. If the pH becomes elevated and stays that way long enough, calcium carbonate can precipitate throughout the water column. In such situations, the entire aquarium can become very cloudy, looking almost like skim milk (Figures 9 and 10). Such precipitation events have the beneficial effect of lowering the pH and alkalinity that were raised by the overdose, limiting the ongoing damage that takes place. In many cases, there is no apparent harm after a day or two, but in a few rare cases, when the overdose was especially extensive, a tank crash can occur, killing many organisms.

The following important points should help in dealing with a limewater overdose:

1. Don't panic! These overdoses do not usually cause a tank to crash.

2. The primary concern is pH. If the pH is 8.6 or lower, you need not do anything. If the pH is above 8.6, then reducing the pH is the priority. Direct addition of vinegar or soda water is a good way to accomplish this goal. Either one mL of distilled white vinegar, or six mL of soda water, per gallon of tank water will give an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units. Add either to a high flow area that is away from organisms (e.g., a sump).

3. Do not bother to measure calcium or alkalinity while the tank is cloudy. The solid calcium carbonate particles will dissolve in an alkalinity test, and all of the carbonate in them will be counted as if it were in solution and part of "alkalinity." The same may happen to some extent with calcium tests. Wait until the water clears, and at that point, alkalinity is more likely to be low than high. Calcium will likely be mostly unchanged.

4. The particles themselves will typically settle out and disappear from view over a period of 1-4 days. They do not appear to cause long term detrimental effects to tank organisms.

5. Water changes are not necessarily beneficial or needed in response to a limewater overdose.

 

[Gtinnel]

I'm still fairly new to apex so I'm going to go ahead and tag the resident apex expert also.

@SuncrestReef

 

[NEFFx]

Wait I just looked I wonder why it didn't shut off from your pH, unless that is what finally shut it off.

To program it go to the tasks and do the trident controlled dosing.

I added bit that after this episode and then turned everything off till I have time to figure the new program out. Lol. Slow moving distaster as I go get some lower alk salt to do this water change.

 

[NEFFx]

Is the tank white with precipitate?

here's my advice on similar kalkwasser overdoses:

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

When limewater is substantially overdosed, the transient precipitation of magnesium hydroxide from normal use may not be the only precipitate that forms. If the pH becomes elevated and stays that way long enough, calcium carbonate can precipitate throughout the water column. In such situations, the entire aquarium can become very cloudy, looking almost like skim milk (Figures 9 and 10). Such precipitation events have the beneficial effect of lowering the pH and alkalinity that were raised by the overdose, limiting the ongoing damage that takes place. In many cases, there is no apparent harm after a day or two, but in a few rare cases, when the overdose was especially extensive, a tank crash can occur, killing many organisms.

The following important points should help in dealing with a limewater overdose:

1. Don't panic! These overdoses do not usually cause a tank to crash.

2. The primary concern is pH. If the pH is 8.6 or lower, you need not do anything. If the pH is above 8.6, then reducing the pH is the priority. Direct addition of vinegar or soda water is a good way to accomplish this goal. Either one mL of distilled white vinegar, or six mL of soda water, per gallon of tank water will give an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units. Add either to a high flow area that is away from organisms (e.g., a sump).

3. Do not bother to measure calcium or alkalinity while the tank is cloudy. The solid calcium carbonate particles will dissolve in an alkalinity test, and all of the carbonate in them will be counted as if it were in solution and part of "alkalinity." The same may happen to some extent with calcium tests. Wait until the water clears, and at that point, alkalinity is more likely to be low than high. Calcium will likely be mostly unchanged.

4. The particles themselves will typically settle out and disappear from view over a period of 1-4 days. They do not appear to cause long term detrimental effects to tank organisms.

5. Water changes are not necessarily beneficial or needed in response to a limewater overdose.

Hi Randy, I read similar in one of your other posts. Ph is high 8.75 and kh is 14.5dkh so not terrible. That said I can do some water changes to help balance or add 250ml of white vinegar?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy, I read similar in one of your other posts. Ph is high 8.75 and kh is 14.5dkh so not terrible. That said I can do some water changes to help balance or add 250ml of white vinegar?

Yes, water changes help, heavy breathing, and vinegar.

Soda water is good too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Solutions to High pH Problems

Some solutions to pH problems are peculiar to a specific cause, such as adding vinegar directly to limewater, or using less limewater than normal. Some general solutions, however, are frequently effective. Water changes are generally not an effective long-term solution to any pH problems. My recommendations on how to deal with high pH problems are detailed below.

Adding a buffer is a very poor way to control high pH. The best option in this regard is to add straight baking soda, but it lowers pH only slightly and provides a large boost to alkalinity. I showed experimentally in a previous article that adding enough baking soda to lower artificial seawater’s pH by 0.04 pH units raises alkalinity by 1.4 dKH (0.5 meq/L).

The most benign way to reduce high pH is to aerate the water more. Whether the aquarium looks well-aerated or not, and regardless of its oxygen level, if its pH is above 8.5 and its alkalinity is below 11 dKH (4 meq/L), then the aquarium is not fully equilibrated with carbon dioxide in the air (if its alkalinity is much higher than 11 dKH, then that may also require correction). Equilibrating carbon dioxide can be much more difficult than equilibrating oxygen. Air contains very little carbon dioxide (about 350 ppm) relative to oxygen (210,000 ppm). Consequently, a lot more air needs to be driven through the water to introduce the same amount of carbon dioxide as oxygen. Perfect aeration will solve nearly any high pH problem, and will rarely cause any problem of its own.

That said, sufficient aeration is not always easily accomplished, and other methods can be useful. These other methods are:

1. Direct addition of carbon dioxide: Bottled soda water (seltzer) can be used to instantly reduce an aquarium’s pH. Be sure to select unflavored soda water, and check its ingredients to be sure it doesn’t contain anything that should be avoided (phosphate, etc.). Many manufacturers list water and carbon dioxide as the only ingredients.

I recommend adding 6 mL of soda water per gallon of tank water to reduce pH by about 0.3 units. Add it to a high flow area away from organisms (such as in a sump). The local pH where it first is added will be very low. Going about this procedure slowly is better than proceeding too fast. If you do not have a sump, add it especially slowly. Some soda water may have more or less carbon dioxide in it than others, and the lower the aquarium’s alkalinity, the more the pH will drop. Also, the higher the pH, the less the pH will drop, because seawater’s buffering capability declines steadily as the pH drops from about 9 to 7.5.



Figure 3. Adirondack Seltzer, used to add carbon dioxide and lower pH.

1. Direct addition of vinegar: Commercial distilled white vinegar (typically 5% acetic acid or “5% acidity”) can be used to instantly reduce an aquarium’s pH. Do not use wine vinegars because they may contain undesirable organics in addition to the acetic acid.

I recommend adding 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of tank water to initially reduce pH by about 0.3 units. Once again, add it to a high flow area away from organisms (such as in a sump). The local pH where it first is added will be very low. Going about this procedure slowly is better than proceeding too fast. If you do not have a sump, add it especially slowly. The lower the aquarium’s alkalinity, the more the pH will drop. Also, the higher the pH, the less the pH will drop, because seawater’s buffering capability declines steadily as the pH drops from about 9 to 7.5. Remember, there may be an additional later drop in pH as the aquarium’s organisms metabolize the vinegar to carbon dioxide.



Figure 4. Heinz Distilled White Vinegar, used to lower pH.

 

[Poseidon03]

What is the maximum you want you alk to change? You want a swing of 8.3 to 9.5?

 

[Billldg]

@SuncrestReef can you help with the programming

 

[SuncrestReef]

Never place any command in the DOS Advanced tab to turn it ON. This will override the programmed schedule and just run the DOS non-stop at 25 mL/minute until that line of code is no longer True. This is the equivalent of placing the DOS slider to the ON position instead of AUTO.

 

[NEFFx]

Never place any command in the DOS Advanced tab to turn it ON. This will override the programmed schedule and just run the DOS non-stop at 25 mL/minute until that line of code is no longer True. This is the equivalent of placing the DOS slider to the ON position instead of AUTO.

Do I tell it to go to auto instead of on?
I just want it to start dosing the prescribed amount when alk is low. I have a calcium reactor and Kalk reactor both on another DOS so these are just of those don’t keep up.

 

[SuncrestReef]

Do I tell it to go to auto instead of on?
I just want it to start dosing the prescribed amount when alk is low. I have a calcium reactor and Kalk reactor both on another DOS so these are just of those don’t keep up.

I'm not sure how experienced you are with the Apex and the DOS, so I'll try to explain it in basic terms. Sorry if this is lengthy, but it is very important to understand.

The normal way the DOS is controlled is through the graphical schedule. This is where you tell the DOS how much liquid to deliver over a period of time:

If you set the DOS slider on the dashboard to AUTO, it will simply follow the schedule you have defined. The DOS will turn on and off periodically during that schedule to deliver the amount precisely. When set to AUTO, it will display the status of "TBL" above the slider to indicate it's following the table of dosing instructions defined by the graphical schedule:


When you add any commands to the Advanced tab of the DOS (accessed from the schedule screen by clicking the gear icon at the top), those commands will override the schedule any time those commands evaluate True. This section is normally used for two reasons:

1. To stop the DOS from running based on a specific condition. Examples would include:
   1. Stop the schedule for a maintenance event. This could be a physical switch or a virtual output to stop the DOS while you're working on something in the sump. Example:
      
      If Output Maintenance = ON Then OFF
      
      
   2. Stop the schedule based on the reading of an Input. Example, if the pH is too high:
      
      If pH > 8.4 Then OFF
2. To instruct the DOS to deliver an additional volume different from the normal schedule. This can be used to deliver additional additives on-demand using a Feed button or a virtual output. In this example, a DOS Profile is defined to instruct the DOS exactly how to function:
   
   
   
   
   
   In the Advanced tab, you can tell the DOS to apply this profile under specific conditions. For example, if you press the Feed D button:
   
   If FeedD 000 Then Dose_40ml

It is NEVER recommended to add a line of code in the Advanced tab to turn the DOS "ON". Example:

If pH < 8.0 Then ON

The problem here is that this will tell the DOS to ignore its graphical schedule, and instead turn the DOS pump on at a steady rate of 25 mL/minute, and it will continue to run at that rate until this line of code is no longer True. This will typically cause you to overdose your tank and cause major problems.

The bottom line is that you should rely on the graphical schedule to deliver the appropriate amount of additives to your tank based on typical consumption rates, and only use the Advanced tab to temporarily turn that schedule OFF, or perhaps to do an on-demand extra dose using a Profile where it has a pre-defined amount to deliver. But you should never set it to ON, because you'll have no control over how much it will pump before the condition defined finally turns it off.

I hope this makes sense and helps explain why what you did is not recommended.

 

[NEFFx]

I'm not sure how experienced you are with the Apex and the DOS, so I'll try to explain it in basic terms. Sorry if this is lengthy, but it is very important to understand.

The normal way the DOS is controlled is through the graphical schedule. This is where you tell the DOS how much liquid to deliver over a period of time:

If you set the DOS slider on the dashboard to AUTO, it will simply follow the schedule you have defined. The DOS will turn on and off periodically during that schedule to deliver the amount precisely. When set to AUTO, it will display the status of "TBL" above the slider to indicate it's following the table of dosing instructions defined by the graphical schedule:


When you add any commands to the Advanced tab of the DOS (accessed from the schedule screen by clicking the gear icon at the top), those commands will override the schedule any time those commands evaluate True. This section is normally used for two reasons:

1. To stop the DOS from running based on a specific condition. Examples would include:
   1. Stop the schedule for a maintenance event. This could be a physical switch or a virtual output to stop the DOS while you're working on something in the sump. Example:
      
      If Output Maintenance = ON Then OFF
      
      
   2. Stop the schedule based on the reading of an Input. Example, if the pH is too high:
      
      If pH > 8.4 Then OFF
2. To instruct the DOS to deliver an additional volume different from the normal schedule. This can be used to deliver additional additives on-demand using a Feed button or a virtual output. In this example, a DOS Profile is defined to instruct the DOS exactly how to function:
   
   
   
   
   
   In the Advanced tab, you can tell the DOS to apply this profile under specific conditions. For example, if you press the Feed D button:
   
   If FeedD 000 Then Dose_40ml

It is NEVER recommended to add a line of code in the Advanced tab to turn the DOS "ON". Example:

If pH < 8.0 Then ON

The problem here is that this will tell the DOS to ignore its graphical schedule, and instead turn the DOS pump on at a steady rate of 25 mL/minute, and it will continue to run at that rate until this line of code is no longer True. This will typically cause you to overdose your tank and cause major problems.

The bottom line is that you should rely on the graphical schedule to deliver the appropriate amount of additives to your tank based on typical consumption rates, and only use the Advanced tab to temporarily turn that schedule OFF, or perhaps to do an on-demand extra dose using a Profile where it has a pre-defined amount to deliver. If you ever set it to ON, you have no control over how much it will pump before the condition defined finally turns it off.

I hope this makes sense and helps explain why what you did is not recommended.

This is good info. I just want it to add some if the Kalk and calcium reactor are not adequate to keep the specs in check. So if the alk or calcium is low. Turn the schedule on. Maybe I can set the maximum it can dose in 24 hrs with the min command?

 

[SuncrestReef]

This is good info. I just want it to add some if the Kalk and calcium reactor are not adequate to keep the specs in check. So if the alk or calcium is low. Turn the schedule on. Maybe I can set the maximum it can dose in 24 hrs with the min command?

You are better off instructing the DOS to add more than needed using the Schedule, then set the Advanced code to turn it OFF if alk or calcium is too high.

 

[Gtinnel]

I'm not sure how experienced you are with the Apex and the DOS, so I'll try to explain it in basic terms. Sorry if this is lengthy, but it is very important to understand.

The normal way the DOS is controlled is through the graphical schedule. This is where you tell the DOS how much liquid to deliver over a period of time:

If you set the DOS slider on the dashboard to AUTO, it will simply follow the schedule you have defined. The DOS will turn on and off periodically during that schedule to deliver the amount precisely. When set to AUTO, it will display the status of "TBL" above the slider to indicate it's following the table of dosing instructions defined by the graphical schedule:


When you add any commands to the Advanced tab of the DOS (accessed from the schedule screen by clicking the gear icon at the top), those commands will override the schedule any time those commands evaluate True. This section is normally used for two reasons:

1. To stop the DOS from running based on a specific condition. Examples would include:
   1. Stop the schedule for a maintenance event. This could be a physical switch or a virtual output to stop the DOS while you're working on something in the sump. Example:
      
      If Output Maintenance = ON Then OFF
      
      
   2. Stop the schedule based on the reading of an Input. Example, if the pH is too high:
      
      If pH > 8.4 Then OFF
2. To instruct the DOS to deliver an additional volume different from the normal schedule. This can be used to deliver additional additives on-demand using a Feed button or a virtual output. In this example, a DOS Profile is defined to instruct the DOS exactly how to function:
   
   
   
   
   
   In the Advanced tab, you can tell the DOS to apply this profile under specific conditions. For example, if you press the Feed D button:
   
   If FeedD 000 Then Dose_40ml

It is NEVER recommended to add a line of code in the Advanced tab to turn the DOS "ON". Example:

If pH < 8.0 Then ON

The problem here is that this will tell the DOS to ignore its graphical schedule, and instead turn the DOS pump on at a steady rate of 25 mL/minute, and it will continue to run at that rate until this line of code is no longer True. This will typically cause you to overdose your tank and cause major problems.

The bottom line is that you should rely on the graphical schedule to deliver the appropriate amount of additives to your tank based on typical consumption rates, and only use the Advanced tab to temporarily turn that schedule OFF, or perhaps to do an on-demand extra dose using a Profile where it has a pre-defined amount to deliver. But you should never set it to ON, because you'll have no control over how much it will pump before the condition defined finally turns it off.

I hope this makes sense and helps explain why what you did is not recommended.

If I use controlled dosing and I add a single line of code to turn dosing off if the pH goes over a certain amount, when the pH drops back below that amount will the dos automatically go back to its normal controlled dosing, or will I have to turn it off and then back to auto? If needed to be done "manually", is there any code that can make it go back to its normal controlled dosing schedule when the pH drops back down to a normal range?

Sorry OP I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but this seems like it may be relevant to you as well.