Dosing nitrates

[Dj City]

You poisoned the dinos with higher levels than they can handle. N and P are building blocks of life, but they are also poisons to every living organism at varying levels - with some, it is very low like the Dinos. You can growth limit dinos with ocean-levels of N and P. I have .1N and .005 to .01P and I do get a few dinos and some cyano that comes and goes in small patches, but they are hardly a problem.

Most aminos are quickly used by single-cell organisms and never reach any coral. I have no doubt that aminos helped to fuel dinos.

If you want to dose nitrate to poison dinos, cyano, etc., then that is a great reason to do so. If you want to get more building blocks to corals, then not only is it unnecessary, but they would also probably prefer ammonia for this. Just know that calcification will slow down with rising levels of both.

The issue with 2ppm if nitrate, is that it is VERY high for what these creatures evolved in. Ocean is usually detectable, but below .1 and you are 20 times higher than this. This is a good place to fuel cyano and dinos.

You don't dose nitrate or phosphate to poison dinos.
You dose nitrate and or phosphate to encourage its competitors to grow, multiply and out compete the dinos.
You feed the competitors with nitrates and phosphates and they in turn starve the dinos out.

 

[jda]

What exactly are the competitors and what do they starve the dinos of?

 

[Dj City]

What exactly are the competitors and what do they starve the dinos of?

Algae, diatoms, pods, general microfauna.

Dinos do very well in ultra low nutrient systems because the biodiversity is not there to compete.

You need biodiversity to combat dinos.
That's why a lot of people that start with dry rock get dinos vs people that start with true ocean live rock.

 

[Dj City]

Look up this thread.
It will explain in very vivid detail

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of battling altogether

 

[jda]

What do you think can grow in abundance with more N and P that cannot grow with the already-surplus levels that dinos grow in? If there are building blocks for the dinos to use, there are building blocks for the pods, algae, etc. to use too. ...and they starve the dinos? Starve them of what? Again, if the "competitors" are thriving, then the dinos will too.

When you raise N and P, you growth limit the dinos by having a poisonous level for them. This happens to diatoms and cyano too... Happens with hair algae at higher levels as well (other algae too). Fenner or maybe Dr Ron gave a talk about this a number of MACNAs ago... I cannot remember which one.

I guess that if you want to think that higher levels of N and P allow more growth of competitors, then it will not hurt, but that is not what really happens. High tide lifts all ships... for a while, until they are poisoned.

 

[Dj City]

What do you think can grow in abundance with more N and P that cannot grow with the already-surplus levels that dinos grow in? If there are building blocks for the dinos to use, there are building blocks for the pods, algae, etc. to use too. ...and they starve the dinos? Starve them of what? Again, if the "competitors" are thriving, then the dinos will too.

When you raise N and P, you growth limit the dinos by having a poisonous level for them. This happens to diatoms and cyano too... Happens with hair algae at higher levels as well (other algae too). Fenner or maybe Dr Ron gave a talk about this a number of MACNAs ago... I cannot remember which one.

I guess that if you want to think that higher levels of N and P allow more growth of competitors, then it will not hurt, but that is not what really happens. High tide lifts all ships... for a while, until they are poisoned.

If your levels of N and P are very low to bottomed out like reading zero on tests, dinos thrive because they have no competition.
Others use N ana P much more effectively and efficiently than dinos do.
Dinos thrive in low nutrients. Algae, diatoms and the like do not.
Add N and P and let algae and diatoms grow, they use the nutrients up before dinos because dinos do not use nutrients as efficiently. They begin to starve.

Good live rock (not lfs rock from a vat) has so much biodiversity that out compete dinos. Dry rock lacks this biodiversity and gives dinos a foothold.
Once they get the upper hand, its dang near impossible to reverse it. Dang near but it CAN be done with competition and time.

It's the same principle as growing algae in your fuge to out compete algae growth in the display.

Im not trying to debate with you.
If you have dinos, go ahead and do what works for you.

 

[Rich Klein]

I wish. Dino's thrive when adding amino's.

Pax Bellum makes a Nitrate that I use for dosing - link to the Reef Bum website where I buy it below: . I also learned the hard way what happens to a Dry-Rock system when nutrients drop too low. Your not trying to poison the Dino, your feeding the competitors so that they out-compete the Dino.

https://reefbum.com/product/nitratemolybdenum-supplement-500-mls/

 

[Reef Quest]

Look at the ATI Aquaristik Nutrition range
https://atiaquaristik.com/en/?one_page_portfolio=nutrition-cnp
Click on the dosing pump for calculating levels

 

[Salty Irishman]

I'm not trying to colour up my corals or get growth from them. I had no issues with that.

I have Dino's from a lack of nutrients in my tank. My phos was 0 a d my nitrates barely detectable.

That is not only not good for coral health but the perfect condition for dino's.

Balancing phos and nitrates is the number one method to get rid of dino's.

That is my purpose for dosing because over feeding the tank is an unreliable method.

+1. I had dink’s as a result of non detectable P04 & N03. Got those levels up via dosing , dino’s disappeared and the corals never looked better!

 

[jda]

N and P are building blocks of life, not a form of energy. If there is a surplus, any surplus, then most macro life is not constrained by getting enough building blocks. .1 nitrate is the same as 5... surplus is a surplus. How can you "encourage" something that already has enough building blocks? Phosphate is usually more of the issue with dinos since they can get all of the nitrogen that they need from ammonia - you get phosphate down below .03 and the dinos usually cannot live. They get poisoned pretty well with lower levels of nitrate. Also, single cell organisms are super efficient with amino acids... anybody dosing aminos will probably be giving carbon source to the dinos before any competitors.

I don't care to debate with you either, but other folks (like the OP) might want to know so that they can figure out their approach. Raising nitrate levels works, just not for the reason of creating more competition. Raising nitrates might also have other unintended consequences.

 

[Dj City]

I have Dino's from a lack of nutrients in my tank. My phos was 0 a d my nitrates barely detectable.

That is not only not good for coral health but the perfect condition for dino's.

Balancing phos and nitrates is the number one method to get rid of dino's.

That is my purpose for dosing because over feeding the tank is an unreliable method.

@jda

Please READ what the OP said.
He has a LACK OF NUTRIENTS. PHOS at 0 and NITRATES BARLEY DETECTABLE.

He needs to raise his nitrates and phosphates so something OTHER than Dinos can survive and compete. With Ultra LOW Nitrates and Phosphates, ONLY dinos will thrive if there are not enough of these nutrients for other algae and microfauna.
Lack of nutrients equals lack of biodiversity.

Right now, his tank is like a football feild with only 1 team playing.

 

[Reefgirl79]

@jda

Please READ what the OP said.
He has a LACK OF NUTRIENTS. PHOS at 0 and NITRATES BARLEY DETECTABLE.

He needs to raise his nitrates and phosphates so something OTHER than Dinos can survive and compete. With Ultra LOW Nitrates and Phosphates, ONLY dinos will thrive if there are not enough of these nutrients for other algae and microfauna.
Lack of nutrients equals lack of biodiversity.

Right now, his tank is like a football feild with only 1 team playing.

You got that right. i had nitrates which suddenly bottomed out.
Prior to this all was well. Unfortunately my salifert tests always read 0 for phos. I stopped testing because my tank had no issues for 3 + yrs.

I changed my purigen a few weeks ago which makes me wonder if it led to a drop in N03.

I know dino's are present in all systems as well as oceans. It's all about the right conditions for them to flourish. In most cases it's ULN to no nutrients.

So I have stopped waterchanges, I have dosed 24oz of copepods, 16oz of rotifer, phyto is being dosed every other day.

Lights have been dropped in percentage and on a shorter photo period.

I suck out the dino's every night with a turkey baster, run that water throught floss in my filter sock and return the water to the tank.

I can't find any nitrate dosing products in Canada at all and potassium nitrate is banned here. So I have hit a road block on how to get my nitrates up because even withfeeding reef roids twice a day for 2 weeks, my nitrates are 0 and my phos hit 0.01 and dropped again.

I can get Seachem Phosphorous for phosphates.


Thank you to all for the support and help. Really appreciate it.

 

[Instigate]

N and P are building blocks of life, not a form of energy. If there is a surplus, any surplus, then most macro life is not constrained by getting enough building blocks. .1 nitrate is the same as 5... surplus is a surplus. How can you "encourage" something that already has enough building blocks? Phosphate is usually more of the issue with dinos since they can get all of the nitrogen that they need from ammonia - you get phosphate down below .03 and the dinos usually cannot live. They get poisoned pretty well with lower levels of nitrate. Also, single cell organisms are super efficient with amino acids... anybody dosing aminos will probably be giving carbon source to the dinos before any competitors.

I don't care to debate with you either, but other folks (like the OP) might want to know so that they can figure out their approach. Raising nitrate levels works, just not for the reason of creating more competition. Raising nitrates might also have other unintended consequences.

Do you have any sources of this information? What @Dj City is explaining is what my understanding is about dinos and there are articles cited in the dino thread he linked you to that support it. If there is something different in some other article or study I would be interested to read it.

 

[hyprc]

What I do know is the ME coral blends different compounds of nitrates so the chance of elevating a single macro or trace element is lower...hope that helps.

Sam

That's my point, though. There's no NEED to dose anything along with Nitrate other than Sodium, hence Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3). If you're testing Calcium AND Potassium regularly and you're deficient in both, then sure, it's a good solution. However, if you're already at target levels, you will likely reach unsafe levels of potassium which can kill SPS and you'd have to dose less Calcium 2-part to compensate for what the ME product is adding. Just trying to make it clear to people trying to decide which route to take so they don't lose colonies like I did.

 

[JPergamo]

Seachem flourish makes a nitrogen for planted tanks. I have used it to raise nitrates.

 

[Harry Thomson]

I use the below product from Brightwell Aquatics.

https://www.amazon.com/Brightwell-Aquatics-NeoNitro-Supplement-Ultra-Low/dp/B00Y01KXWU