Dosing Rubidium

[PSXerholic]

No, it isn't any sort of oxidizer, which you claimed and which is why I asked. I think you must be confusing it with something else.

Rubidium metal is a super strong reducing agent and no one would be using it since it bursts into flame on contact with water.

Rubidium+1 (which is what is in an additive) is very stable and will not oxidize anything except lithium metal itself (even sodium ion will more readily oxidize things than rubidium ion).

Thank you. Let me verify what I read or if I mix anything up here, which may be. It’s a long time ago.

it doesn’t make sense since it’s an alkali metal and hence a reducing agent!

Edit: it’s highly reactive.

 

[D.B.Cooper]

Hi Lasse. How are you measuring the level of Rubidium in your tank and how often?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you. Let me verify what I read or if I mix anything up here, which may be. It’s a long time ago.

it doesn’t make sense since it’s an alkali metal and hence a reducing agent!

Edit: it’s highly reactive.

rubidium metal is highly reactive. Rubidium ion is not reactive, same as as sodium ion or potassium ion.

 

[PSXerholic]

rubidium metal is highly reactive. Rubidium ion is not reactive, same as as sodium ion or potassium ion.

Yes.
It's interesting that it's uptaken by plants and animal cells. Certain marine trace element products contain it through algae apparently.
If you PM me, I will be more than happy to send you a bottle for you to experiment with it. Not much can be done at this level other than simply observing anything that may change from the normal tank appearance. But that's a start.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

will be more than happy to send you a bottle for you to experiment with it. Not much can be done at this level other than simply observing anything that may change from the normal tank appearance. But that's a start.

My tank isn't up and functioning. lol

 

[MabuyaQ]

Maybe you killed off the plankton, making the water clearer. lol

Just to clarify, you say the sand looks better? In what way?

The above article that you post does not surprise me since rubidium looks very much like potassium, and functions like it biologically. If potassium is missing, rubidium is known to substitute. In your aquarium, however, the potassium is presumably normal (which is very high relative to levels in the article) and rubidium is very, very low relative to potassium.

Agreed it is the same effect people see when dosing manganese, not realizing it is mostly utilised by organisms as if it was iron and bio-available iron is actually what is missing in sufficient quantity. May be that many experimenting with dosing Rb are simply adding another K-buffer.

I know of a Dutch Fishery paper that found rubidium bio-accumilating in animals in aquatic environments, where higher than normal/natural levels were measured, just like mercury (and cesium). Possibly to toxic levels, so I would be carefull dosing anything above NSW levels.

 

[PSXerholic]

Hi Lasse. How are you measuring the level of Rubidium in your tank and how often?

My tank isn't up and functioning. lol

Any plans when to set up another salty adventure? Guess it's hard not to set it up.
Mike is using it as well, have a chat with him on this subject by any chance ;-)

 

[PSXerholic]

Agreed it is the same effect people see when dosing manganese, not realizing it is mostly utilised by organisms as if it was iron and bio-available iron is actually what is missing in sufficient quantity. May be that many experimenting with dosing Rb are simply adding another K-buffer.

I know of a Dutch Fishery paper that found rubidium bio-accumilating in animals in aquatic environments, where higher than normal/natural levels were measured, just like mercury (and cesium). Possibly to toxic levels, so I would be carefull dosing anything above NSW levels.

Very good point!
I have done Rubidium up to 0.8mg/L just to see if there is any additional benefit or disadvantage.
However I did not observe anything better after 8 weeks being that high, so I did let Rubidium drop back to 0.2mg/L not considering ICP tolerances.

Recently one person was dosing Rubidium up to 1.8mg/L, no significant effects in any directions, but absolutely not recommended to get Rubidium that high in any way. The tank is still under observation if any medium term effects may appear.

@Christoph, any records on Rubidium levels in Europe???

 

[Tony Thompson]

Fascinating discussion, sorry @Lasse but I can't add any meaningful data your original poll as I don't specifically dose Rubidium. Basically because I have never found a need to change from my current procedures. Always a pleasure to see constructive debate from some highly qualified and experienced reefers such as yourself and @Randy Holmes-Farley to name just two.

I do however run a Triton other System on one of my coral tables, how do you monitor your Rb levels as I was unaware this was part of Tritons ICP OES test.

Would be interesting to discover how a number of the trace elements are taken up by the corals. My understanding is that many may be due to the digestive consumption by the animal and maybe simply an unnecessary part of their food source. Not taken up as a necessary component of the animals metabolic needs . Bioavailability of elements is something I am very interested in.

We find plastics, microplastics and sometimes concerning levels of heavy metals in many marine animals digestive systems, this however does not equate to a metabolic need for these 'contaminants'.

The problem I always have with testing on duplicate tanks and simply observing the effects, is surely each reef tank is a complex matrix of elements and organisms. Surely these variable parameters if not taken into consideration can seriously skew one's point of observation.

I think I remember you rely heavily yourself on Bacterial Consumption within your reef tank. Do you think maybe the Rubidium is indirectly having an effect on the corals appearance by means of bacteria as the transporter. Maybe the clearer water and reflective sand bed are making small adjustment to the spectral and intensity properties of your lights penetration, actively changing the coral response to fluress. I understand that this may be a bit of a throw away theory but then again it also highlights ones need to not just observe but to try and understand what we are actually observing.

In conclusion I would say the most important question to answer first is, Are there any documented cases of Rb having a negative effect on the matrix, and if so at what levels.

Otherwise I see no problem with people dosing Rubidium to see if it has long term benefits (personal preference rather than biological benefit, which would be far harder to quantify).

As a side not I noticed you're aluminium slightly elevated over trace target. Do you have an idea why this is, are you using aluminium oxide for nutrient control or have you a bio media that may be the culprit. I notice an elevation of aluminium with the use of a certain bio media.

Great to see someone still using Oxidators, I have used these in my shop and as a hobbyists for many years. I always have a plentiful supply of Hydrogen Peroxide in storage. One of my go to products.

The UK website for the testing company you mentioned, is actually in English as well as their UK Facebook Site.

Best wishes from your Northern Cousins here in the UK, stay safe.

 

[Lasse]

Hi Lasse. How are you measuring the level of Rubidium in your tank and how often?

I do however run a Triton other System on one of my coral tables, how do you monitor your Rb levels as I was unaware this was part of Tritons ICP OES test.

That´s one of the weak points - I do not monitor it because Triton do not have Rubidium in their test. What I understand - there is one european lab that monitor rubidium and I will further on send in a test to them just for rubidium if his work out well. For the moment - after more than 2 years without WC - I decide that my Rb level was near 0 . I dose up to 0.1 ppm - below the natural concentration. So I feel safe. Just because of that I need to compensate the rising salinity due to adding Core7 with taking out around 0.5 l of saltwater/day - and replace with 0.5 l/day of RO) - I will take out 0.0005 mg Rb a day and need to replace that. I do not know the biological and/or chemical uptake so maybe I do not try to compensate it but I´m probably going to dose around 0.0025 mg/day for three months - sending in a test and calculate.

Agreed it is the same effect people see when dosing manganese, not realizing it is mostly utilised by organisms as if it was iron and bio-available iron is actually what is missing in sufficient quantity. May be that many experimenting with dosing Rb are simply adding another K-buffer.

In my case 410 ppm in K- probably not an issue for me

I know of a Dutch Fishery paper that found rubidium bio-accumilating in animals in aquatic environments, where higher than normal/natural levels were measured, just like mercury (and cesium). Possibly to toxic levels, so I would be carefull dosing anything above NSW levels.

In conclusion I would say the most important question to answer first is, Are there any documented cases of Rb having a negative effect on the matrix, and if so at what levels.

This is interesting - I have seen some other articles about possible toxic levels caused of bioaccumulating. However no prove that it has indeed happens. Neither any test. I have screened the most - However - here is a report not including aquatic environment. I can´t find any ecotoxicol information in SDS about rubidium chloride as an example.

But just some thoughts of the risk of toxic effects caused by bioaccumulation of a compound that exist in sea water with 0.1 ppm as normal level. In an evolutionary perspective - IMO it can´t hardly exist because that gen pool will be out of business rather quick if not the bioaccumulation is as slow that the organism is dead by other reasons before the toxic level is achieved. However - higher values will speed up the process and it is a wise advise to just have NSW levels because we know that Rb will bioaccumulate

The problem I always have with testing on duplicate tanks and simply observing the effects, is surely each reef tank is a complex matrix of elements and organisms. Surely these variable parameters if not taken into consideration can seriously skew one's point of observation.

That´s true but these two tanks is total different both in general coral wealth and management. My idea was to see if I get the same result in both

I think I remember you rely heavily yourself on Bacterial Consumption within your reef tank. Do you think maybe the Rubidium is indirectly having an effect on the corals appearance by means of bacteria as the transporter. Maybe the clearer water and reflective sand bed are making small adjustment to the spectral and intensity properties of your lights penetration, actively changing the coral response to fluress. I understand that this may be a bit of a throw away theory but then again it also highlights ones need to not just observe but to try and understand what we are actually observing.

Exactly but because I always try to have a holistic approach and first want to know if it can affect my tank at all. And I´m aware that my observations is only valid for my tank. Therefore the poll. There is people reporting good effects but the most reports is from people going from normal approach to reefing into one of the systems approach (Triton, reef moonshiner, oceamo and others) I have run one system for more than 3 years but not use rubidium - if I see any effects is more likely that you can link them to rubidium

As a side not I noticed you're aluminium slightly elevated over trace target. Do you have an idea why this is, are you using aluminium oxide for nutrient control or have you a bio media that may be the culprit. I notice an elevation of aluminium with the use of a certain bio media.

Yes I use AL99 together with GFO when I need

Great to see someone still using Oxidators, I have used these in my shop and as a hobbyists for many years. I always have a plentiful supply of Hydrogen Peroxide in storage. One of my go to products.

The UK website for the testing company you mentioned, is actually in English as well as their UK Facebook Site.

Best wishes from your Northern Cousins here in the UK, stay safe.

Thanks - and stay well when you are open up

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Put some more fuel into the fire

I have had a certain LPS coral for more than three years. This coral have a rather funny way of eating. Is like it turn its inside to the outside. I do not know the species. This how it looks like during normal situations

​

When eating

​

Here you can see the transforming phase

​

When I got it 3 years ago - it did show this behavior at every feeding situation.The last year - I have not seen it at all. It also use to be more "expanded" during the light period too.

However - four days ago - it show up this feeding behavior again and it have been like this for the last four days. This was unexpected - I thought this coral was going downhill and was one of the reasons why I wanted to test this trace element but have more hoped it should be more expanded than before - did not expected this type of behavior change

I can´t help but thinking of the famous goat study that suggested an appetite-enhancing role for rubidium in goats.

Sincerely Lasse

Observations till now

 

[Nano sapiens]

I believe that is an Acanthophyllia deshayesiana.

 

[Lasse]

I believe that is an Acanthophyllia deshayesiana.

Thanks - it is one of my favorites

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Summary after 15 days.

I dose up to 0.1 ppm the first 5 days. No dosing after that - 10 days after 0.1 ppm. No idea how much it is now.
Observations aquarium 1 with normal dosing of most trace elements
after 5 days
The aquarium seems more clear - and sand and rocks seems to reflect more light
Some corals more reflecting and colours get more brighter (2 LPS and 1 mushroom) All corals looks like better growth with some exception of a few euphyllia. Softies and LPS - "expand" more
after 10 days since first dose
Better feeding response from several LPS
After 15 days - The whole picture indicate a healthier aquarium
The algae film on the windows tends to be more brown - but still very green
Some problem spots (cyano/dino) seems to be better - but all is not gone

Aquarium 2 Softies and mushrooms An aquarium on its way downhill. No dosing - no WC either
The aquarium seems more clear - and sand and rocks seems to reflect more light
The algae film on the windows have gone from brown to more green (opposite the other aquarium)
The algae film does not grow as much as before
Some spots of Cyano/dino disappear.
Two bubble tips that was going downhill have stabilize themselves. Not worser but either not better
This aquarium will not be treat the same way as before - I will do WC every 10 day (around) with water from the other aquarium ( aquarium 1) - water taking out of salinity reasons)

Summation

Aquarium 1

Some positive effects - however there is no hard evidence that it is just due to the dosing of Rubidium. For each observed effect - it could be different other thinkable reasons.

Aquarium 2

Fewer effects as I can see it - also these effects can have other explanations

Will I continue with the dosing?

Yes - I will. The feeding response from some of my LPS is the change that maybe is the most important effect and easiest to link to the dosage.

I have got new Rubidium solution now ant aim to dose around 0,0015 µg a day. In july/august I will send an ICP test to Oceamo e.U. (they test rubidium in Europe).

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the update!

 

[Lasse]

One more update after nearly 1 month.

Negative effects or negative development during this month - no such events

Positive changes during this month. Some of my LPS still showing feeding responses as they start with a week after addition of Ru. Colour enhancement in some corals - better colouration overall. If this is positive or negative maybe can be discussed after reports of colourful bleaching in natural reefs as a stress response.

Clarified water - more reflects - still there but now it is not as obvious like before.

Looking at the aquarium give me more "healthy" vibes than before - maybe it is mr placebo visiting but - overall - it is my feeling.

Is it "must have otherwise it goes downhill" tool to dose rubidium - nope

Is it a tool for fine tuning the system - maybe

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I have not any before - after pictures but here is some pictures of corals that I feel have get more vibrant colours last month

​

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Reefr]

On top of Aquaforest, Oceamo and Andre, Quantum Aqua in Australia are also selling a rubidium additive (you can google it). It's also present in ATI Essentials Pro, Sangokai Chem-Balance Ca-1 and probably a few others

 

[Reefr]

Right. Do they go to the rubidium store and buy 5 kg of rb and put it in their salt vat? I emailed them, so hopefully we can find out soon.

It's a synthetic salt, so in principle, yes they do

 

[David S]

Put some more fuel into the fire

I have had a certain LPS coral for more than three years. This coral have a rather funny way of eating. Is like it turn its inside to the outside. I do not know the species. This how it looks like during normal situations

​

When eating

​

Here you can see the transforming phase

​

When I got it 3 years ago - it did show this behavior at every feeding situation.The last year - I have not seen it at all. It also use to be more "expanded" during the light period too.

However - four days ago - it show up this feeding behavior again and it have been like this for the last four days. This was unexpected - I thought this coral was going downhill and was one of the reasons why I wanted to test this trace element but have more hoped it should be more expanded than before - did not expected this type of behavior change

I can´t help but thinking of the famous goat study that suggested an appetite-enhancing role for rubidium in goats.

Sincerely Lasse

Observations till now

Similar feeding response to my Scolies after lights out