Dosing Vinegar

[Robert (Bearclawws)]

Just wanted to add to this thread that popped up when I googled. I didn't realize I may have woken an old dead post after replying and then seeing the dates. Anyway, I am hoping I am not off subject but posting this..

I have not compared prices of carbon dosing products, like sugar, vinegar, vodka, nopox and so on. I would guess maybe sugar would be the cheapest route & vinegar close to it. I am using algae scrubber and skimmer on my 400 gallon but it is new and all is good so far. I would most likely dose sugar or vinegar if I had to. I have not tried any type of carbon dosing. I read a lot of good things about Nopox and others, but this hobby can be expensive so I look at costs as well as what's most important like, is it healthy and maybe, which type of carbon dosing might have less negative effects if I made a mistake, such as accidently overdosed over time? Anyone know that?

Also, does carbon dosing remove phosphates as well as nitrates? If not, I would want to stick with algae scrubbing as it does both and add a little GFO if needed later on.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also, does carbon dosing remove phosphates as well as nitrates? If not, I would want to stick with algae scrubbing as it does both and add a little GFO if needed later on.

Organic carbon dosing generally will remove some phosphate, but not as much (relative to nitrate consumed/reduced) compared to growing algae.

There are a couple of reasons for this, and the main one is likely denitrification (a process that requires organic material) that consumes nitrate and not phosphate.

However, organic carbon dosing has benefits beyond nutrient reduction, which may make it a better choice than simple algae growth.. These include the bacteria being food for other organisms, and potentially direct uptake of the organic compound as food by corals, sponges, etc.

 

[User1]

However, organic carbon dosing has benefits beyond nutrient reduction, which may make it a better choice than simple algae growth.. These include the bacteria being food for other organisms, and potentially direct uptake of the organic compound as food by corals, sponges, etc.

Dosing vinegar has a by product can potentially be food for corals and sponges?

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Robert Rainey I've done multiple posts that way. No biggy. And this wasn't an old thread. I started it on Friday so all imput is great but even if it was an old post, sometimes it's good to revive them for new folk. And no, not off subject. Sometimes a subject covers more than one aspect.

Nopox is expensive. I'm considering making my own. Nopox, from what I've read, doesn't reduce po4 as well. Most still use gfo. I use gfo and phos guard in bags when needed. I've had zero po4 with the high nitrates. I don't have a beneath tank sump for an algae scrubber but have one power head with it growing, acting like an algae scrubber.

My goal is to get nitrate down a bit then see where I go. I'm upping the nopox and slowly adding vinegar. If that doesn't do it, I'll try just vinegar

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dosing vinegar has a by product can potentially be food for corals and sponges?

Both the acetate you dose (from vinegar), and the bacteria that use it to grow can be food for corals and sponges. :)

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Randy Holmes-Farley what advantage does vodka have, as in the homemade versions of nopox? I don't want cyano so won't do vodka on its own but is there an advantage to using it along with vinegar? I'm going to use up the rest of the nopox and then decide what to do (too expensive to waste even though it does not do anything for my tank.)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley what advantage does vodka have, as in the homemade versions of nopox? I don't want cyano so won't do vodka on its own but is there an advantage to using it along with vinegar? I'm going to use up the rest of the nopox and then decide what to do (too expensive to waste even though it does not do anything for my tank.)

I'm not convinced it has any, which is why I used just vinegar. If you are using just vodka or vinegar and get cyano, switching to the other is a reasonable plan. That's how I got to vinegar from vodka that I started dosing initially when I took up carbon dosing, but got increased cyano.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Thanks Randy. Seems like a good place to start.

 

[redfishbluefish]

A couple comments....

1. Above you mention zero phosphates.....no form of carbon dosing is going to work with zero phosphates. You need both nitrates and phosphates for carbon dosing to work.

2. There appears to be a concern about cyano with vodka......but you're currently using NOPOX, which contains vodka (ethanol). Are you having a problem with cyano with NOPOX? Any form of carbon dosing should be slowly introduced to minimize the likelihood of "bad things" happening.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Hi @redfishbluefish Right now, my po4 is at .46 It goes up and down. I add gfo and or phosguard to get it down. Normally it is between 1-2 and I don't stress at those levels. If I hit 0 then I add seachems florish. I started rinsing my food again as well. Some folk recommend not rinsing as it is good for the corals. But hitting .46 was just too high. Will retest it today or thurs. as I add fresh gfo and phosguard yesterday

Good point. So far, no real issue with the cyano from the nopox. I see a bit on a coral periodically and blow it off. I was using the recommended dose of 6 ml nopox for a 60 gal--a bit low actually. I've taken it up to 10, and now 15, with the added 2-3 ml of vinegar. I'm going very slow and testing daily right now. In the 40-80 range. Was 160 or higher. I know not to chase numbers, and I know some tanks do well at the 160 mark, like Paul B, but I have a couple of sps's that are not looking quite so happy anymore. 20-40, even 80 they were good. So that is why I'm aiming to hit the 20-40 range (10-20 would be a dream but if my tank like a bit more, I can live with it)

 

[User1]

Both the acetate you dose (from vinegar), and the bacteria that use it to grow can be food for corals and sponges. :)

Thanks. Was not aware of that. I do have a few sponges that somehow seem to be doing well not to mention some small biovalve types in rocks I didn't know about until I moved my 40 into the new tank. Startled me they did... Thanks again - learned something new.

 

[Robert (Bearclawws)]

Organic carbon dosing generally will remove some phosphate, but not as much (relative to nitrate consumed/reduced) compared to growing algae.

There are a couple of reasons for this, and the main one is likely denitrification (a process that requires organic material) that consumes nitrate and not phosphate.

However, organic carbon dosing has benefits beyond nutrient reduction, which may make it a better choice than simple algae growth.. These include the bacteria being food for other organisms, and potentially direct uptake of the organic compound as food by corals, sponges, etc.

Very interesting! Thanks for your time :)

 

[Robert (Bearclawws)]

A couple comments....

1. Above you mention zero phosphates.....no form of carbon dosing is going to work with zero phosphates. You need both nitrates and phosphates for carbon dosing to work.

2. There appears to be a concern about cyano with vodka......but you're currently using NOPOX, which contains vodka (ethanol). Are you having a problem with cyano with NOPOX? Any form of carbon dosing should be slowly introduced to minimize the likelihood of "bad things" happening.

Thanks for that info, that is definitely something to go on the "need to know" list. Which is very long in this hobby lol.

 

[Susan Edwards]

so using the nopox, I upped the dosage to 20-25 per day and added 3 ml of vinegar as well. Also did a 17% water change this week. Nitrates are down to 20 which even after a water change I have not seen in a long time. Water changes usually dropped me to 40. The nopox is nearly gone so I'm left with the choice of making my own--I have the stuff to do so or going straight vinegar. Trouble is, I don't know how much straight vinegar to dose to compensate for the 25 ml of nopox I'm currently using. Am thinking maybe I should make my own and continue until I get nitrates down to the 10 range then hold there or make the switch to vinegar at that point. Could also start using more vinegar than vodka in the diy nopox. I have a bit of cyano but it's only on one coral, and maybe that coral isn't doing as well and that is why. Not sure. Any thoughts. I'm so glad to see a drop in nitrates!

 

[redfishbluefish]

I'm of the opinion that if NOPOX now appears to be working, then stick with the DIY version.

If you still wish to switch over to vinegar, I'd be looking at maybe 3 times the volume of NOPOX as a starting point. My guess is that you'll most likely have to up that to closer to 4 times.

 

[Susan Edwards]

thanks paul. I'll do that. Good info to have for later.

 

[Bill Urbanski]

Ok so who miss till carbon dosing? I dose 95ml of vinegar daily to my 260
Gallon reef. Nitrates stay around 5-10. I feed very heavy.

 

[Uncle99]

In order for me to lower nitrates (50 to 5), I needed to do three things.
-increase surface area......add marine pure blocks......seeded.
-increase water change frequency.
-add a carbon source....Nopox is cheaper than Vodka in Canada.

carbon feeds the good bacteria, the surface area provides the home, the corals and skimmer help to take up as well.

Too about 3 months, but slowly and consistently, nitrates dropped.

Using Nopox, I started with recommend dose, then increased 1ml each week until I hit 5ppm nitrate, then, I backed off 1ml.

been dosing carbon four years now, doesn’t seem to matter how I feed now, always nitrate 5ppm.